EP 69: Finding Joy in the Messy Middle Paula Jenkins

This week’s episode is all about finding Joy in the Messy Middle. Paula and I talked about finding the little joys in our lives. We talk about what small extravagances make a huge difference: spending time and effort to create a work space and zoom background that works, letting go of good enough and leaning into just-right-for-me, and really leaning into the inner princess and the pea. Asking what would make this thing 3% better for ME? We also talked about how our present self can care for our future self in a way that leaves us feeling deeply loved and cared for.


Tami: Good morning and welcome 

Paula: at low Tammy. How are you? 

Tami: I'm fantastic. Who are you? And what do you do in the world? My friend. 

Paula: Well, my name is Paula Jenkins and I am a podcaster at jumpstart, your joy and podcast producer, and a coach. And I mean a mom life, you know, all the other things do, but yeah, that's my work.

Tami: Awesome. So tell me, what does a podcast producer, do I know what a podcast or does they tell stories? They interview people. You've interviewed some amazing people on your show, but what do you do as a podcast producer? 

Paula: That's a great question. We, w. I mean, we do the editing piece, which I think is a lot of what people think of as someone that you would hire to help with a podcast.

In addition to that, it's kind of like a TV producer. So I work with, or I work with hosts to help define, what is their content about and what are some of the things that they can do to consider the strategy of what's behind? if they have a business and their podcast is attached to their business, how do they.

Kind of link the two and make the stories that they're telling, you know, what bring in clients that are a good match for them. And also how do they tell stories that excite them and bring out, you know, whatever their mission is in this world. and share it in kind of a heartfelt way. Cause my sweet spot are the people that I love to work with the most are what I called.

Call heart-centered disruptors. So like they know what they're doing or they're at the top of their field, but they're also doing it in kind of a rebel way, which totally fits with, yeah, my Gretchen Rubin, tendency, which is rebel. Oh, 

Tami: I love rebels. So yeah. So tell me if somebody is listening right now and they are either like, so where are people.

In their business journey when they're like, you know what, I need to figure out how to do this. What is the sweet spot of client for you? Is it the brand new person who's I don't know. Or is it the person who's this is what I do. This is who I do it with. Tell me more about that process. 

Paula: Sure.

It's really somebody who's been in it a little bit. I think, Well, a podcast is a great way to help identify further what your message is from a marketing standpoint. And that's been my background for 20 years is I was actually a producer for digital content in a bunch of ad agencies. So I know how to do content.

I know how to produce it. And I think it takes, I think like I said, a podcast could be a great way to help identify, what is your story? What are you sharing? And all of that, because you're talking about it constantly. But I think the sweet spot of working with someone is probably they already know kind of their avatar, if you want to call it that, but who do they want to work with?

they know what service is. Is making them some money and maybe they want, they know how a podcast could layer into that to reach more people that are like the people that they love to work with. And they know a little bit about a nugget of their message that they want to turn into a show. They could have had a show for a little while.

I've worked on shows that were already in existence or that have pod faded. That's a fancy term amongst us podcasters, which is they've kind of stopped recording and stuff, putting out new episodes for whatever reason. but I think a little bit of that knowledge of what you're doing, who you serve and why you want to do it.

And what lights you up about it is really helpful. before you kind of jump in with a producer. 

Tami: I of course love every minute of that, because part of the reason why I started my show is because I was like, you know what? I'm having the same conversations over and over with potential clients first time clients.

And I was like, you know what? I feel like. If I told people all the things I'm telling everyone now, then they could be like, Oh, that's what you're talking about. And then take it to a deeper level. And I have found that is to be, that is true. That people are like, Oh, now I know you're talking about because you know, people could be like, I don't really know what self care is, or I only think it's this one thing.

So tell me a little bit about your show that you do. It's like you're on season six. Tell us a little bit about your actual podcast, where I was a guest and I will link to our show that we did together in the show notes here. 

Paula: Yes, it was so much fun having you on. so jumpstart, your joy started in 2015 when I was actually in life coach training.

And so you'll now hear that what I did is not what I just told you. The answer was the last question, but, so jumpstart, your joy started when I was looking for something to create. When I was considering a marketing arm for what I thought would be a brand new coaching. business that I was starting and joy kind of stood out to me for a lot of reasons.

I mean, I'm the person that when I was a little kid, people would say, what do you want to do when you grow up? I would literally say happy. I, you know, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I'd say, happy, they look at me like you're doing that wrong. that's not even an answer to this question.

Tami: I see you. I want it to be peaceful, but go ahead. 

Paula: Yeah, peaceful. It's a good answer too. Yeah. And so I think that's a natural thing that bubbles up through me, like I'm just wired as a happy person or somebody that seeks it out. And I'm in Tony 10, I had my son and had a very long labor and was diagnosed with PTSD and really sense that I couldn't find my way back to that core nugget of a person that I knew existed.

And so that's where I feel like joy was calling to me. I mean, that's my look back version of it, but. And that I had to find my way back to whoever I had been both for myself. Cause I missed her and for this new baby that I was like, he deserves the money that I'm meant to be. And I don't know where she went.

And so that joy piece kind of stayed with me. And then, so then five years later is when I had decided I can't do corporate America anymore. I really like coaching people. and maybe this is the thing and it's always been a journey. of what do I love? And what's drawing me forced. You know, so looking at coaching was great, but then it led me to the next thing.

And it was, it's interesting to see that. So when I started my show about joy people ask, I mean, it hit new and noteworthy. It did a bunch of, you know, the things that shows do and people are like, how do you do that? And I was like, you know, I have this background in production from advertising. I have this.

Coaching skillset. I love doing podcasting. That was kind of a surprise, but maybe not really. And I was like, well, I could teach you. So that's where my first class came from and out of that class, a client. And so it all just kind of built organically. And so my show is about joy and people finding joy every day.

And how do you find joy in hard times and improbable situations? And season six is all about finding joy in the messy middle, because that's what we're in. We're like in this weird place, we don't know really, it doesn't look anything anymore. Like it did the world, like it did in November of 2019.

It's really hard to see where this thing ends and how we'll all be at the end of it. And so how do we find joy now? Because it's still important. And so that's what the show is about. I'm 

Tami: very much looking forward to season six. we are 100% in the messy middle, and before I hit the record button, you know, we were doing a little check in, we haven't spoken since, early summer.

And, yeah, I'm looking forward to get some more tips on how to get comfortable in that messy middle. Yeah. yeah. It's a weird place, for sure. Yeah. If you have to sum up in one sentence, how you work with people. So people are thinking, okay, I gotta get me some more Paula. how can people, further their relationship with you other than listening to your show?

Paula: Well, I mean, I take on clients. So if you have a podcast I'd love to work with you. If you're a heart centered disruptor, I work with podcasters who, you know, want to further their craft and find a way to do it. And I also do pick up a couple of coaching clients, at a time I like to keep it small. So that's the other way is you can find me a jumpstart, your joy and.

Reach out there. 

Tami: Sounds good. Okay. So Paula had the self care affect your work both as a podcast producer, business owner and life coach 

Paula: and mom. Yeah, it's a mindful approach. I mean, it's, I think self care is hard and sometimes it's also very pragmatic. So I think really tuning into the spaces that feel hard and then looking for a solution for them is.

Kind of the pocket answer I've got for, what do I do for self care? And so, in some cases it looks like I bought a folding screen that goes around my desk because I was tired of my family staring at me. Yes. And the kitchen. So that gives me a little bit of privacy. I feel like that's self care, I've got to get my work done.

and I think it's saying yes to the little things that either bring more joy to your life or that make you feel, I don't know better about your day, better about yourself. And so that's what I try and do is just make it easier for me to do the work that I do. And also easier for the people around me, especially in this kind of bizarre, messy middle situation, you know, how do we get the stuff done?

and how do we still, you know, have a good day, not feel really frustrated all the time. 

Tami: So what are some of your little joy? 

Paula: well, I love. Hanging out with my dog. He's a small Chihuahua. I also really love taking a walk. I have to say that you did something. I think in a show when the pandemic hit or Instagram about how really reconnecting with your body helps.

And I found that to be so true and I appreciated that nudge back to walking. And noticing the things around me when I walk, just really taking it in and letting it be an experience, even if I'm not going that far from my home. I think also taking really mindful breaks. I've gotten back to world of Warcraft, the video game and found that to be joyful.

I really like playing games. I really like the escape of it. And I think allowing myself to do that, it feels like some tiny self care of yeah, go do something that isn't work. Yeah. And then taking time to just go outside because it's easy to get stuck here at a desk. And I really like being outside and that's, you know, literally three feet from me right here.

Tami: So, no, I hear you. It's funny. I've been talking with a bunch of my clients about the hearts stops around work because so many people are working at home for the first time. They don't they're like, but it's right there, but I could be working. But remember I took that time to Eat a long lunch with my kid.

And so therefore I have to make up every single moment, quote, makeup, all that work time. I'm like sorta where you could just, you know, give yourself some hard boundaries. And because I feel like when we can work any time we work all the time. 

Paula: Yeah. 

Tami: And then if you give yourself a hard stop and I love that, you're like I'm going to play video games as part of my joy I've been doing, And I need to get back to it, but one of my favorite musical artists, Rhett, Miller love him.

I'm gonna try to get him on the podcast here. Now let's put that out there. cause he also has a podcast I'm like we could, you know, I don't necessarily need to be on your show, but you should come on mind. he has been doing, home concerts, like solo show as a basement. Since the second week of the pandemic, he does four shows a week, three to four shows a week on stage it.

So again, using technology in new ways to bring those little joys. yeah. 

Paula: Yeah. That's so important. And I 

Tami: think go ahead. I was gonna say. 

Paula: And I think just looking back to it, like things that have brought me joy as a child, like we're, we are rewatching all of little house on the Prairie and it is about to end and I don't know what we do next, but it's been a real joy just revisiting that and just sitting down with a family and all of us kind of laughing about things that I loved as a kid, you know, and Nelly Olson.

And like we have discussions about all the topics that they bring up. that's been a lot of fun too. 

Tami: I'm furiously writing notes as okay, well, how can I get more joy in my life? So thank you for that. And, we have been watching some mr. Rogers, like that's on Amazon prime and you can get all the, like all the way back to the first episode.

And it's kind of mesmerizing. Cause I don't know if you remember this, but only one thing at a time happens on mr. Rogers. So it is like a full on meditative state through the entire episode. It's wow, they're just feeding the fish. He's just taking his shoes off. He's having one conversation. There's not all this animation and dah going on.

It's pretty fantastic. And we just dipped our toe. As a mom daughter watching experience into the great British baking bake off. 

Paula: Oh, so good. So, so good. So yeah, I love that 

Tami: show. Like we're only on the F like Netflix has it and they're doing collections, not seasons. So it's. I anyway. So we don't, we're not just getting the whole experience, but what I am getting is, again, it's a quiet show, so all the stuff, so it's kind of grown up and kind of racy goes right over the top of my kid's head.

yeah. Even the desserts are they're familiar, but they're not because we don't know what they're called. Like she kept going, why are they talking about sponges? I'm like, well, that's what they call cake. Yeah. And she's that's. And when they did biscuits and she was like, why are they calling biscuits crackers?

I'm like, see, we're doing some cross cultural things right now, but I find it to be really soothing. 

Paula: Yeah, little house on the Prairie has that same appeal. And there's, I mean, there are a lot of dynamics in there of a bully and, you know, and they bring it, I mean, they brought up plagues and races and it's been really interesting to watch it and see the lens with which people were looking at it, you know, in the.

Seventies and eighties, but then it brings up a discussion that the family can have, but it's also a very simple, like you're saying, and there's not a lot of distraction and drama and, yeah, 

Tami: it's 

Paula: a joy. 

Tami: Okay. I, I remember watching it as kid and loving it. 

Paula: Yeah. 

Tami: And so revisiting that is now going to be on our, our, maybe that can be our winter show.

because I'm like, you guys, this isn't going to be over anytime soon. So we might as well dig into, what's got a lot of seasons that can be really soothing little house on the parade. It's good. Yeah. I grew up in the seventies and I was a teenager in the eighties. And so the reason I bring that up is because I feel like self care.

What we learned about self care can vary depending on when and where we grew up and who we grew up with in our immediate families and what media we were, consuming. So what did you learn about self care growing up? 

Paula: Well, probably not a lot. I mean, be totally honest. 

Tami: I will say that's mostly everyone's answer like, 

Paula: yeah.

I mean, they're 

Tami: talking about, 

Paula: was it talked about, I mean, I think the closest, this is so awful. I'm sorry, mom. I think the closest thing to it was something around I didn't, I'm not a really big fan of math. And so there was that thing of do your math work first before you get over to English or reading or whatever.

And so you can get the thing out of the way. Maybe that's a little bit of self care is take the thing, but yeah, it's harder first. So you can get to the thing that you love. But yeah, it was a different time in a different place and maybe kids just don't know. But I mean, I know my son knows about meditation and stuff probably cause I've told him, but yeah, it was a weird and I was the same time era.

I mean, time and era as you, you know, born 72. So teenager in the 

Tami: eighties. Yeah. it's a funny thing. I think first inklings of any kind of self care talk was on Oprah at four o'clock every afternoon. Thank you very much. Yes. And I feel like Oprah really changed a lot of the latchkey kids because they, she changed the conversation around so many things.

Like she obviously grew up in a different era than we did, but what she did was that she. Took what she knew, what she grew up with made change and then shared it with us, 

Paula: right? Yeah, totally, 

Tami: man. 

Paula: I will 

Tami: be grateful to her for that. 

Paula: Yeah, there were so many, and I think she even called them aha. Moments of Oh, people are doing things differently.

People are talking about feelings and emotions. People are making choices that don't keep them in a nine to five job, their entire, where, you know, 40 years in a career. And yeah, I totally agree. I remember also this is maybe not a Testament to over, but me being tired, but I would love to turn on Oprah and nap.

that was self care 

Tami: because 

Paula: she was so soothing. 

Tami: Well, I also think that napping as a tool of self care, I was also, as it's napping is also a tool of resistance. Like guys, we can't do like our bigger work in the world. If we're dragging our half dead carcasses around, we're so tired. So we're all really tired.

We need to rest. In fact, about 10 years ago, I was in my yoga teacher training and. I was encouraged for the first time in my life to do less and to rest more. And I thought you're nuts and it was really hard. And so I, but then I dedicated myself to resting until I wasn't tired anymore. And it took five years of actively, like what can I do to help myself feel more rested?

It took five years, and then I spent five years relatively rested. Which was weird. Cause I had a little kid then and I was like, how are you rested? I'm like, I literally go to bed when she goes to bed. That's how I'm doing it. and you know, sleep being the foundation of what I feel like is my sanity. I still really, prioritize it.

It is so unsexy, but man, rest, I feel like is the unsung hero of self care. 

Paula: Yeah. Yeah. There's something else that popped up for you when you were saying that is, I remember also in college, I went to UC Santa Barbara and so the beach was literally right there. One of the reasons I chose this school, and.

I would. So my last quarter, I had gone crazy already and taken everything I needed to take. So I had a bunch of electives I just decided to take, cause I wanted to say, I would literally go to the beach and read, but that was like to read all of my stuff for all the classes. But that was like exquisite self care.

And the thing that I knew at that time was, I don't know when I'm going to live like. Five minutes from a beach ever again in my entire life. And so I made it a point of every day going there and soaking it up and knowing this is it. I'm never going to be this age again. I'm never going to leave.

I'm like, I am going to just enjoy the hell out of this. So I don't know where that just came from, but it really was. I think that was an active early, like just immersive self care. And it was, 

Tami: I'm so applauding that I spent. So much of my high school career after I got my driver's license, cutting school and driving to the beach and doing what yes.

Reading, literally one of my favorite things like of all time ever in the history of the world, I liked when pamper and the good old days when we had to get on an airplane to go places. One of the things that I love to do when I travel with two things, this is very telling. I like to go to cafes and other countries and read what I like to go to the grocery store and see if I can pick out which products are, which based on the, How things look like you're all.

Oh, this is what Colgate toothpaste looks like with Ty lettering. Interesting. I just don't know what this is. Then you pick up something next door and you're like, I have no idea what this is. It must be toothpaste because they're next to each other. Don't know what it is. And anytime I can get on an airplane and go somewhere with a beach, I will be there with a water bottle and tons of books.

Paula: Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: Actually it's even thinking about it relaxes me right now. Okay. So everybody, if you have any sort of beach nearby and mine, it doesn't have to be the ocean basically near water with a book. Yeah, I'm good. The Pacific ocean is best. However, I don't let the best get in the way of good enough.

Which is putting my feet in a kitty pool in my backyard with a book works. Okay. So how do you practice self care now that you're a grownup, 

Paula: it's also a challenge. but I think. I do love a good nap. And that was something that I did not like as a kid. So that maybe that was also another early example.

My dad avid napper. And would, they would tell us you got to go take quiet rest time, which I think actually equated to mom and dad need a moment to just de stress, do their own thing. So please be quiet. But I think I love a good nap. I like to have a novel. so I'm reading, I know you're going to ask some other questions, but city of girls, which is just like juicy and good that's Liz Gilbert right now.

the walk, the walking is good because I need to get out of my house and out of my head and that just. That helps. and I think there's something I was thinking about this today is there's something about also allowing myself some small extravagances or some bigger ones. I think there was something about, There was some story back in the past about, you know, you don't want too much or don't do too many lavish things.

And, and so I think I haven't said yes to things that I've, that would bring me a lot of joy. And so like last year, an example of that was. We got a passholder for the family or a passes for Disneyland. So we're annual pass of course, lower tier ever for this. But yeah, it meant that like last November we just had the past dozen, we were like, let's go see the Christmas Decorah.

And I had never seen Disneyland at Christmas time. What a joy like, Oh my gosh. And to see how they would swap out haunted mansion and. Small world. Like it was just exquisite and I, it was really, I mean, so that was self care. It's letting myself have that thing that I knew would bring me joy, even though there was some story in there that it was too expensive or that's silly, or like whatever.

I was like, hell with that, we're just doing it. So, yeah, so I'm really sad that's closed for many races, but. I think those are some good examples of just kind of, and leading into that space of where this feels amazing. And why am I saying no to it? Like kind of questioning those things? I don't know all of them right now, but yeah, 

Tami: I think that's a perfect example because I, again, like we're surrounded with this idea of you should definitely want more to be better, but it's for the sake of that, but there's very little.

A time where people go, but what are the, what is it about that thing that like really scratches the itch for you? And I love that you use the word exquisite when describing your Disney experience. 

Paula: yeah, so 

Tami: now, but I do have to ask that seems like a big luxury extravagance because Disney is not inexpensive.

What are some spring ball things? 

Paula: Small. I love that you asked this. Can I share another little thing about this too? Is that so even in a recent podcast episode, cause yeah, I realized that is extravagant. I also realized that those things are not available to us in that way. right now, right?

so it brought me to this thing about how do we get drawn to these things? And Disneyland is one of them and I can love it. And it is also a version of a bed in a bag version of joy, which means it comes it's pre-packaged it's. Like really digestible. It's like the bed in a bag, you get a target where you're like, Oh, here's everything I need for a beautiful bedroom.

And there's nothing wrong with that. But like, how do we, and I think the heart of what you asked right there is the very thing that I love about this realization is that there are values and things that are involved like that. That are part of the Disneyland experience. And that's why it's exquisite and probably for all of us, I mean, in some way or another, but there's then now that we're in shelter and place still, for many of us are quarantining or we can't go to a movie or whatever.

what are the things about that experience that loved and could not get enough of? And that felt, I mean, in any, you know, in this case, maybe like self care or self-indulgence. That you can take out. And I think some of it was for me, I can eat anything I want because I'm Celia celiac, gluten free.

So they are really good at that. It Disneyland and it diluted gets me to no end feeling like immensely weird for is part of it. Like they, they go the extra mile. I like to be seen and heard and, you know, Hampered and, you know, maybe the nuance of feeling like everything is a possibility here.

Like I could do anything. So those are the things that I think taking out of whether it is, you know, that it is an expensive extravagance. So what are those things that you could do every day? And I feel like for me, I've been. kind of each month over the shelter in place, I've been like kind of looking on Etsy or Amazon or some other shopping and thinking, Oh, what's there.

What is the tiny little goodie that I could get myself once I get past, you know, sending out all my invoices in the month. 

Tami: So 

Paula: that seems like a little, like little. Delight, but gives me as much joy, probably as Disney van, you know, some like beautiful masks or a new, tiny purse, because I'm tired of carrying my big purse and putting it in the target cart and thinking, Ooh, what else is on?

So I have a little over the shoulder. Yeah. Purse that, you know, it's like a crossbody bag that I was like, Oh, that's just so good. And I. I know, it's just like letting myself have those little things, instead of feeling like I have to hunker down and use the old purse. Cause it's a good thing, but no, let myself have those little things and I think.

The other example would be, I mean, even this little screen behind me for a while, I, this is awesome. I had this really gross, ugly, this, the box that our refrigerator came in eight years ago. Why do I still have it? Evidently, because I knew there was a pandemic coming eight years later and I would want to put something behind me in my kitchen so I could have a cubicle.

Who knew I'd want to go back to that either, but like allowing myself to say that things gross and dirty and like, why am I allowing that in the kitchen and buying a beautiful screen, that was a hundred dollars from target. And letting that be the thing that separates my little tiny office air quotes, between, you know, my desk and what is the kitchen sink literally behind me, I didn't want to have to clean that up every day.

So. That's a little bit of self care. I don't have to clean up my sink. I know nobody can see behind me. It feels a little bit like luxurious, but so those are some things that are not of the pick level of a Disneyland annual pass, but like, how do you find the thing, things that feel really good and let yourself have them as maybe the question.

Tami: I love every single bit of it. I, so in my yoga teacher training, I S I specialized, I did graduate level work. No, I didn't. I just did extra study on restorative yoga, which is the, I call it the laying down part at the end, but for the whole class. And the idea is that you get your body so comfortable that you're, that you can release all of.

Your tension. So instead of holding your arm up, you put a blanket under there instead of, holding your head in a certain position, you tuck a block under there. So it's the idea of getting as comfortable as humanly possible. And I always referred to it as dig into your inner princess and the pea.

Yeah. Like that is going to get you further. So Further than anything else, because I don't know what is going to scratch your comfort itch, or what's going to delight you, but how can we dig into those experiences for ourselves and say, what would make this easier? What would make this more delightful and to not make it like, and it has to go from.

A broken down refrigerator box from eight years ago to the perfect thing, but what can get you 3% more comfortable? What can get you 3% more? Beautiful. 

Paula: Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. there's a lot of synergy between those two and if it's, I mean, and it doesn't have to be expensive, it doesn't, I would even be a creative project that like brings out joy and is self care in its own way that maybe there's a different way to solve a problem that doesn't involve any money.

Just a little bit of time. 

Tami: Yeah, I was going to, I have been, I bought, a little jar of acrylic paint and I'm taking all of these old frames and I'm changing them from like plain wood and I'm just painting them with black acrylic paint. And at first I was like, Oh, but is it the right paint? Is it right?

This? And I'm like, you hate this thing as it is right this second, just paint it with whatever little like elementary school paint you have and just let it be good enough. Cause you were about to throw that thing away. So just paint it and see, do you like it better? It's like the idea of I hate this shirt.

I have to keep it in perfect position or perfect condition, or just take your scissors to the shirt and see what happens. What would happen if I made this sleeve shorter? What would happen if I cut the neck out of that? T-shirt where that, that neckline itches, and you could be like, well, I have a bunch of rags or you could be like, Oh my God, I just customize my entire wardrobe with a pair of scissors.

Oh, let's all take that little bit okay. Of time. And, you know, and try to make things work. Just a little bit better, but in it's not because it's for other people, it's because we're worth that extra little bit of effort. 

Paula: Yes. Amen. Right there. Yes. And that's the joy in the messy middle, like the cutting up of your t-shirt, even if it doesn't work out perfectly like there's joy right there in that moment.

And we all need a little bit more of that right now. that's. That's part of what's missing and we feel so stuck. And so I got to keep this cardboard box behind me because it's the only thing, there was some real thinking going on behind my cardboard box cubicle, that was like, really, like I had gotten in it, I, it was like in the world thinking or something, and I had to call myself out on that BS. Cause it's no, I can do better than a cardboard box right here. Right? 

Tami: what brought 


Paula: to this is the answer. This is the horrible answer I'm going to have to accept. 

Tami: and living through a pandemic is hard enough.

Yes. So can we make our lives easier? Just 3% easier today. What would make our lives 3% easier? Would it be to when you get your grocery order, just cut up the vegetables now and put them in glass jars that you have in the refrigerator so that when you open the refrigerator, you're like, Oh, I have a rainbow of things.

I already prepped because past me wanted future me to make sure we're not throwing those vegetables away. We're actually eating them. 

Paula: Yes. 

Tami: I love it. When past 

Paula: me remembers future me, like that is one of the best joys. Oh, I'm so glad you said that. Right? 

Tami: Cause remember is kind of lazy. She can be kind of surly, but if I catch her for I'm like, come on, present me 15 minutes is going to take care of future you in such a way that you actually feel loved and cared for.

Paula: Yes. Oh, there was a boat. Oh, this one just hit me too. Like back before I had my son. So this is 10 years ago. I remember I was sorting out my, my shirts and my wardrobe. Cause I was like this. Okay. Here's a package of things that will fit great. Once I had my kid and I put a little love note in there to myself for God, I did it, opened it up and I was in the midst of it.

I'd had a horrible time, right? you know, way long labor. PTSD at this point and I 


Tami: this thing up and it says these,

I lost you.

Oh, I 

Paula: do more of that. Cause it's exquisite again, when it happens. So thank you for taking me back there. that was a really good little moment. 

Tami: Oh my God. I totally lost, I didn't hear a single word of that. All I heard was that you had a note and that's it. 

Paula: Do you need me to resay it? 

Tami: Yes. Hold on.

Yes I do. That was so weird. 

Paula: That is weird. Okay. When you're ready, you can 

Tami: still hear me. 

Paula: Yes. Okay. Okay. So that just took me back to this place where, kind of that idea of past me doing something for future me, where back when I was about to have my son, I was sorting out my wardrobe in my clothes. So, you know, and I was thinking, Oh, I'll put these things aside.

Cause they'll fit well after I'm back from the hospital. And I put a little note in there for myself that was like, Hey, these things will fit. And I, and in it, I wrote not alone. And I love you. To my future self. I didn't remember that I had even done it. And so when I get back from the hospital, I'm really not.

I'm all out of sorts. I, you know, can't deal with anything. And I open this thing up and I have a love note from my past self that I didn't remember writing. And I just, I lost it. 

Tami: Like I was just 

Paula: sitting there crying, thinking. this is the most exquisite act of self love I have ever heard of. And he don't remember 

Tami: doing it and it's so beautiful.

Paula: And how could I do more of it? Because this is amazing. So thank you for opening the door on that. What I had not thought about it in a little while. 

Tami: I am so happy to hear that. And I love this idea of present self taking care of future self, because. Man. It really is. It's it just demonstrates over and over to yourself that you're like, somebody loves me and that's somebody me.

And I know I sounded very Stuart Smalley, like super new AGI Rowley when I said that, but I'm just going to say, try it. It feels really good. 

Paula: Yeah. Well, and it's such a surprise. You're like, Oh my God. Cause I still have that note and I get it out. Sometimes I'll be like, Oh, that was a good one way to go past Paula.

That was a good one. Well play. 

Tami: And I would encourage everyone. Who's made it this far. What could you do today to help? Next week you, what could you do today to help five years from now? You? So, one of the things I do for 80 year old me, cause I just turned 50 this year. One of the things I do for 80 year old me is I do my physical therapy exercises, which are super boring.

And I walk, I try to walk every day and it's not because I'm like, you know, I'm going to change the size and shape of my butt. I'm going to look like I'm 25. And my jeans now 50 year old me is trying to look down way down that line at 80 year old me who wants to be able to still walk and to be strong and flux.

Yeah. I want to be friends with her. 

Paula: Me too. 

Tami: Right. So how did you take care? Our senior citizens sells, like if you were going to everyone, here's a little exercise for you. Sit down and grab a piece of paper. And in your mind, think of yourself as 75 or 80 years old and check that person out, conjure up in your mind.

And who is she and what is she doing and how is she in the world? And then take care of her. 

Paula: Yes, 

Tami: take care of it. Take care of our senior citizens. Okay, Paula, currently we're living in a pandemic. So how is your self care going well? And what areas do you think could use a little more attention? 

Paula: Going well, I do walking. If you like snuggling the puppy. I do taking time to play world of Warcraft. I do like that. I also let myself for the podcast for next season, like settle into something. And I don't mean settle in, like I'm settling for, but like really get into it a topic. It feels a little scary, but also this is so right now I can't resist it.

So those feel like, self care also buying several two packs of very comfortable shorts from Costco that are not sexy, but very comfortable also felt like great self care. the other thing about not going so well is I need to sleep more. I need to be, or I would like to be, I guess, more gracious with everyone around me because I, you know, I'm catching myself in that space of, I think even on, I'm sorry, I'm Bernay Brown's podcast in the last couple of weeks, she talked about how people are at surge capacity.

We have none left, like we're at it. You know, we don't have any room. And so I think reminding myself to be cognizant of the fact that I'm not the only one that's been in it for seven months, we've all been in it. We all need a little more grace. And I think learning to extend it, that to everyone is a place that I would like to be, because I want to feel better about myself and about everybody around me.

So I think that's it. I 

Tami: have all praise hands for that. And if you guys haven't caught that episode of surge capacity with Bernay Brown, please do her next show. Or a couple of shows later. She talks about the book burnout. my friend Gina has a podcast called swollen. She's a therapist. She talks about surge capacity.

I've been talking about surge capacity with all of my clients. Yeah. And hell yes. The more grace that we think of each other. During this really hard time in this, I know everyone's like stop saying unprecedented time and stopped saying new normal. I'm like, well, you want to call it purple? Okay. In this new purple we are all really tired guys.

Paula: Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: And I hear you on the sleep and I will tell you, I spend all day figuring out what will help me. I feel rested and I have a whole routine, and I will tell you this, Paula, you probably already know this, but you know, that bedtime starts the moment you get out of bed in the morning, it does not start in the evening.

That's the other thing I'm like, Oh, what do I need to do to be tired enough, emotionally, spiritually, mentally, and physically to actually surrender, to sleep every day. Whew. 

Paula: That's a great question. 

Tami: It's a list, right? That is a question. And I actually, that was one of the exercises. I, again, I have a class called feel rested fall.

If you want to feel rested, like we might have to do some unsexy stuff. 

Paula: You have 

Tami: to do what we have to do to feel the way we want to feel. We have to be like, sleep is such as surrender state. We have to be tired and. Able to let go enough to actually make 

Paula: it happen. Yeah. And I think there's so many distractions right now that it's easy for the monkey mind or whatever, to just be racing all the time.

Tami: So what speaking of morning, what is your morning routine or do you have one and has it changed in the pandemic? 

Paula: Yeah, it has. I used to really enjoy. Getting up showering, having a cup of coffee, and easing into a day. And now with everyone home that doesn't always happen or rarely happens. And so it's often the cup of coffee and then kind of sitting down to read my own emails from people.

I mean, whether that be clients or personal. Kind of get a lay of the land. I try not to immerse too heavily in the news cycle, but I do like to check in because somehow that does kind of settle me. I'm not like, Ooh, I wonder what happened. let's just rip off the bandaid and see what happened. and then spending a little time with planning out the day.

It helps me get a roadmap. I have. You know, I do that Sundays as well, so I know what I'm doing in the week, but also charting out what the day is going to look like, I think is, it sounds very pragmatic, but that feels like some self care and some sort of a routine. 

Tami: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. Because, you know, I spent a lot of time talking about routines with people.

And one of the things that people have, I've noticed a lot of people have noticed it, that they are needing since we're all home together, they're needing. Space before they give to other people. So a lot of my clients are doing the thing that they is completely unspeakable people. Like I cannot get up earlier than my children.

And I'm like, okay, that's fine. But can you try it? What happens? let's not shut that door on that possibility before you even try it. And everyone who tries it's okay. I never thought this would work ever in a million years, but when I get up and I give myself. That quiet hour with my coffee and maybe 10 minutes of meditation.

I'm like, Oh my God, I can handle one of my children, show me their faces. Cause it doesn't feel like one day is bleeding into the next. I feel like I had that moment where I'm like, look at me being a grownup here with my coffee by myself. Like I have a friend who redesigned her bedroom and she put a coffee maker in like on her nightstand.

Oh, and she has coffee in her bed. Like she's at a hotel. That's 

Paula: amazing. 

Tami: Right. 

Paula: I really 

Tami: like that idea where you're like, wait, we can do that. Yes, you can. we can do all the things. 

Paula: I really liked that idea about if you wish you could be at a hotel, how could you make your bedroom have those qualities?

Tami: Yeah, not the bed in the 

Paula: bag version of Dewey folks, 

Tami: right? Splash out for the blackout curtains or splash out for the noisemaker or the white noise maker or one of my pro tips is the Don simulating alarm clock instead of a noise, because we're going into fall where it's actually dark in the morning.

And so I have a sunrise alarm clock. It constantly changed my relationship to morning. 

Paula: I like that. Or I have to think on that one. 

Tami: So what do you, what else do you want people to know about you and where can people find you online? 

Paula: I don't know what else I want people to know about me. I mean, 

Tami: it's 

Paula: such a treat to get to talk about joy and I am so delighted that I've gotten to do this work for six years.

I mean, I think maybe one of the things would be like, don't give up on what you feel calling to you and give it enough time to let it unpack itself in a way, because I would never have guessed when I started on the journey that this. This life that I have right now would be where I was headed or that it would be the thing that feels so right.

And I think there's a piece of self care and whatnot in there is let it unfold and see where it goes. I call it well-planned loosely held, but Let it unfold for you. Don't clean to what you think it should be. and if somebody would define me, I met jumpstart, your joy.com. and that's my social handle, most places except for where it's too long.

And then it's jumpstart joy on Pinterest and Twitter. but yeah, I'd love to connect and talk about joy or self care or podcasting with people. and I do have a free. Podcasting a mission statement class that I run or that people can take as a challenge, but basically it lays the foundation of what were you, what if you want to start a show, what would it be about and what would you talk about?

and I think I've gotten great feedback on it. it's project plan basically, which is as a project manager and heart, yeah, I love doing that stuff. So. Well, 

Tami: I love, planning. Doesn't come naturally to me. So I love when people give me a framework to work with. And can people find the, the challenge on your website?

Paula: Yeah. I'm sorry to join.com. 

Tami: Yeah. Awesome. Okay, Paula, thank you for that. Are you ready for the quick start questions? 

Paula: I am. I even did my homework. 

Tami: Okay. I'm excited. All right. What is your Enneagram? 

Paula: I am a two wing three. Is that how you say it? 

Tami: I do also, just so you know, if you want some specific, Enneagram self care, I have a Enneagram podcast series.

You can find that, it's episodes 41 to 50 on the 100% guilt-free self-care podcast page. Are you an introvert or an extrovert? I'm an 

Paula: introvert. 

Tami: Oh my God. Me too. Do you know your Myers? Briggs? 

Paula: I'm an I N F J 

Tami: hi, happy unicorn. We're the rarest vignette. So many of my guests are inf Jays. Yeah.

Okay. You already gave it away. You're a rabble on Gretchen. Rubin's four tendencies. 

Paula: I am I rechecked last night? Cause I was like, is that true? Or am I just making that up? And no, it hit again. So I am a rebel. 

Tami: I have to say my clients are usually rebels or obligers and I love them both so much. I can't stand it.

I'm a questioner. But do you have a line? Do you 

Paula: find, I know that the inf day rebels are, they irritate themselves to no end. 

Tami: I will just go out and say rebels irritate themselves, but don't worry because obligers feel bad that they can't do anything. They have this story. Obligers tells this story.

I can't do anything. I hit it. I'm like you actually do everything. It's just for everyone else. Right. You're so good at doing things for other people obligers. You don't have any time to do things for yourself. So we're just going to flip that script a little bit. And so that's their story. And then the rebel story is Oh my God, can you believe, blah, blah, blah.

I'm like, again, once you learn how to deal with a rebel, they are on fricking stoppable. I love them so much. 

Paula: Yeah, well, and I think I know we're in a speed round, but, I'm a rebel, so, 

Tami: yeah, please. Sorry. 

Paula: I think the key for me and my rebel illness has been, if I can find something that ties me back to love, and that might sound really weird, but that either things that I love, people that I love, or I don't know.

Causes I love, then I can make a thing happen. I don't have to have another external, internal whatever reason, but I love my show so much. I've never missed a week, you know, 

Tami: there's something 

Paula: that's the key, at least for me. Well, but the, yeah, the key for their 

Tami: rebel is they it's an identification.

So what I'm hearing you say is I've decided I'm a weekly podcaster and then you put a period at the end of that sentence. Yes. And then guess what? You're a weekly podcaster. Cause that's what you decided. 

Paula: Yes. 

Tami: It's but before the decision is made though, that's where it's 

Paula: tricky. Yeah. And 

Tami: it's tricky because you're spending all that time going like you can't boss me around.

I can't either. And it's okay, I'm not bossing you around. I'm waiting for you to decide what you want to do. So my best friend in the whole world is a rebel. I have known her. We've been friends since I was in sixth grade. And I just found out about this framework a few years ago. But what I've always known about her is I, if I try to boss her around.

I get nowhere though, a couple of years ago, she called me at the beginning of the year and she said these words and I was like, damn girl, I can't wait for it. She said, I've decided I'm going to be a better steward of my money. And I was like, whew, tell me the ways that you are going to command this action.

And she has gone into like super overdrive, meet with a new financial advisor, get all of her. savings done, get all of her retirement on track tracking, spending like budgeting in a way that I'm like, you know how to do that. And she's I have an MBA and I'm like, shit, I forgot. it's like why you have tools, but what, but she also using them because she hadn't made that determination.

But once she decided to be a good steward, her words of her money, I was like, everybody watch out. 

Paula: Yeah. 

Tami: Cause I would need to know what that even means. And rock on and hasn't had any, reverberation or rebellion about it. She's like I made the decision and here I go. It's incredible. Okay. What is your love language?

Paula: Is it acts of doing whatever that one? Thank 

Tami: you. Yeah. 

Paula: Acts of service. Yes. 

Tami: Acts of service. Do you have, did it tell you that your secondary, 

Paula: I don't remember what it was. Okay. I probably did. 

Tami: I have to tell you I'm an I, that acts of service is my secondary. I love it. My husband is his is acts of service.

I'm like, Oh, I just need to do the dishes. Oh, I just need to do this. I'm like, well, that was easy. yeah. Okay. Paula, what is the favorite last book that you read? 

Paula: Okay. Ballad of bird songs and snakes. It's the hunger games. Like it's the new one people and it just came out by Suzanne Collins. 

Tami: So it's is it Suzanne?

Paula: Yeah. It's it is by Suzanne Collins. 

Tami: Suzanne Collins. Yeah. Okay. I really I've sped through those. So that's the newest one. You say 

Paula: it is. It's the newest and it's, I think. It's 65 or 75, 65 years ahead of before where we met Katniss. So she's not in it. I don't want to give any other spoilers, but it is good.

Tami: Oh, of course. It's good. Those things where I was like, Oh, I get why people want to read these, what's your favorite book of all time? 

Paula: Yeah, that's so hard. It's it might be the little house on the Prairie series. I also really loved. The red tent by Anita DMR, which is a revisioning of yeah. Of biblical Hebrew and Oh, so good.

It just retells the story. Yeah. of women basically, I think in the old Testament, which is, yeah, 

Tami: I resisted it. Yeah. Be like hardcore. I really resisted it. And then I read it and I was like, I have got to stop doing that. I also resisted Harry Potter and I know that JK Rowling has lost her fucking mind.

That's not here nor there. I resisted Harry Potter. Cause I was, I got too many people like this and that I read it and I was like, I'm that jerk again? Who is resisting what everyone likes. Cause it's good. Okay. So that's why I jumped in to the hunger games faster. Cause I was like lots of people like these, let me see.

And I was like, yep. I see why people like these. All right. Paula. What's your favorite personal development book? 

Paula: I really loved. It's a tossup. Bernay Brown rising strong, or the wilderness book, which I think we're back to each other. Those 

Tami: are the wilderness, 

Paula: the yes. Posts, so good. 

Tami: Okay. All heart I emoji is about that.

yeah. Bernay Brown is I'm so glad we get to talk about her again in this episode, because she is, yeah. She's my secret girlfriend. I love her so much. Yeah. Yeah. I'll just say when people are like, which Bray Brown book should I read? I'm like, well, what's alien. Yeah. Cause I'll give you a specific order.

They don't need to be read in order, but I need to know what is on your mind today. And then I will tell you which one you should read today and then come back when you're done. All right, Paula, where do you like to hang out online? Where is your favorite social media channel? 

Paula: It's probably Instagram, although I'm, I have a little bit of an obsession with Twitter where I don't actually like to tweet, 

Tami: but I love to 

Paula: for seeing what's going on in the world.

So I think for being a person on social media, Instagram for stocking trending topics, Twitter, 

Tami: I. I it's I'm talking to myself. I spent so much time. I don't, I hardly ever tweet, but I'll tell you what I am on there several times a day. Cause I'm like, what are all the cool kids who know hella shit doing?

What are they talking about? Got it. 

Paula: Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. And sometimes 

Paula: it's just conspiracy stuff, which is humorous to me. I love a good conspiracy theory, but it's also like sometimes they get news. That's amazing. And then two days later, you actually see it in the news and I'm like, yeah, I already knew it's on 

Tami: Twitter.

Well, that's exactly. that is what I love. Cause it also, if you're following, I follow a lot of 

Paula: journalists 

Tami: on Twitter. So I'm like, now I know what's happening because they're talking to each other. I feel like I've been a very smart person's cocktail party where I'm almost afraid to open my mouth because I'm like, what am I going to say to this?

Adding to this conversation. I'll just be over here, listening and learning. 

Paula: That seems very inf J cause I feel 

Tami: it. So like I'm willing to be a little bit like, no ha look at me over here on Instagram, but on Twitter, I'm super quiet. I'll retweet like nobody's business. Yeah, 

Paula: that's fine. 

Tami: Alright. Past present, future.

Speaking of which, what is your favorite TV show? 

Paula: Is that three separate or just 

Tami: all in however you want to take this question, 

Paula: people are going to be surprised if there's, if they're hearing listening and they heard me talk about little house on the parrot. My favorite show is probably actually Battlestar Galactica.

Tami: Okay. I'm literally like what is even happening? Didn't see that. Well, okay. Now I have to ask, what era was that and what did you love about it? 

Paula: One. So the one that was maybe 10 years ago, I love it. I loved how they told a story and. And there was, so I love a good dystopian tale and I love a good apocalyptic tale.

So there's kind of both of those, wrapped into one good story. And they really kept the, who are the Cylons question? Cause we knew there were 12 models, but they kept it going and kept the clue. Like kind of mass singer style, like the clues were there, but you couldn't really figure it out of who the Cylons were.

Even though we knew they were in the cast, we didn't know. and I think it was also the, at the time when I was watching it, so I watched it as it was being released. And I've also since rewatched it probably a couple of times, but like having a group of friends that wanted to talk about it was also super exciting.

And there was some really great strong, like I love the turn Starbuck from a man to a woman. and then let her play a really strong role throughout. I thought that was super smart and fun. yeah. And there's just some really good character development. general mom, Admiral Adama was great and the president was so much fun and such a real person.

I mean, she had cancer and then was like trying to lead people to a new thing. Like just brilliant writing and brilliant characters. 

Tami: Okay. I'm, this is what I'm thinking about this. When you said dystopian and all that, I was like, cool. I'm going to have to wait for the current. That'll be like, when the pandemic's over, perhaps I'll dip my toe, but I'm like, I can't take more stress, 

Paula: right?

Tami: that's a little too close to home right now. I'm going to go ahead and watch some queer eye or something between now. And when we get things. handled with the pandemic. Alright, Paula, last question. The question I actually stole from inside the actor's studio, I always want to know this about everyone, Paula Jenkins.

What is your favorite swear word? 

Paula: That's a great question. So. If it's a real swear word jackass. And I like to use, I like to humorously call people jackasses and I can't really explain that, but then I also say balls a lot, just, that's not really a swear word, but then I also made up Jack hole, which is like a mix up of jackass and asshole, I guess.

And I just say Jack hole and most people look at me like, what are you talking about? But it's it's pretty clean, but it's kind of descriptive. 

Tami: I like how you think you're like, I'm not going to have an explicit rating on every one of my shows and I'm like, I'm going there. I'm going to ask this question to make sure that I have an explicit rating.

So I don't have to be like, do I check the box? Do I not check them off? 

Paula: Podcaster's dilemma. Just say Jackal. 

Tami: But that would require such a level deep level of reprogramming my fuck filled mouth. Like I don't think, but let's see. I just made sure. We got one, Paula. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

I am so excited about your season six and finding some joy in the messy middle. Let's definitely keep in touch and everybody, if I don't talk to you between now and next week, this is your reminder that you matter tale. 

Paula: Thanks.


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