How are you? How are your habits?

I ask because I suck at habits. Also, I am low-key obsessed with habits.

Anyway, I recently went to a new eye doctor and by the end of the appointment, I was ready to plunk down my credit card for a $1,500 out-of-pocket service that would, as a side benefit, clear up some Rosacea issues I have recently developed.

Instead, I booked a follow-up appointment and wondered what would happen if I dedicated some energy to regularly using my skincare products. The ones I already own.

 Is it just me, or has skincare gotten fancy AF?

Dumping the feeling of overwhelm by deciding to follow the advice of my favorite online dermatologists and keep it simple: 3 steps - cleanse, moisturize, and SPF. Repeat at night and replace SPF with a serum.

I‘ve also learned I need to keep it accessible (put it all in one container near a mirror and sink, and do not cover the container, or I will never see the contents again🤣).

Surprise, surprise: in just a couple of weeks, my skin is much calmer, feels & looks better. Seeing the results from doing the basics regularly reminds me of this quote.

What are you doing regularly that is making an impact on your life?

This week on the podcast, I am talking all about the insidious nature of being raised a good girl. She’s so polite. She’s so agreeable. She is so likable. She’s such a team player and so dependable.

And we wonder why we are exhausted and resentful, we don’t have time for fun, friends, or self-care.

Meet Sandi Konta. She’s a coach for women who are ready to create a life that reflects their needs, without feeling guilty.

We met because we are both Fair Play Facilitators. I love learning about the how and why other facilitators come to the work of rebalancing domestic labor. Sandi is  Done Being Good and I love what she’s unpacking and unlearning.

Please listen to my conversation with Sandi and let me know what you think.

Transcript:

Tami 266

Tami: [00:00:00] Oh, Hal, I am super glad you're here because I am with another fair play person, another person who knows all about what it takes to get equity in the home so we can get equity in the world. I'm so happy to see your face. Can you tell us, for those people who have not yet met you, who are you and what do you do in the world?

Sandi: Oh, well, so happy to be here. Thank you so much. I wrote down some notes because I wanted to hit the, the key points, but I, I'm an a mom of two tweens with soon to be a teenager, a partner, an activist, and I wanted to, like, hit on that because I know we have some things on co in common. I'm most at peace in nature by the w in the woods, by the ocean.

I'm a late identified A DHD, or I have two neuro diversion kiddos. So advocacy and activism for them is part of my life. And professionally, here's my story. I was an a plus. Good girl. My business is named Dun, being good, by [00:01:00] the way. And I grew into a, a validated supermom, burned out. I had a health crisis.

Like I literally lost my voice. I lost one of my vocal cords. The irony is not lost on me. And around that time, I woke up to how much societal expectations had infiltrated my thoughts and my marriage, and even more importantly, how I was complicit in my own oppression and was making choices every day.

They kept me overwhelmed and burned out. So I made huge shifts in the last couple years, and now I like to call myself a disruptor of good girl conditioning. In March, 2023, I think I did fair play and did a ton of workshops and facilitation around that. And then last year I completed Martha Beck's coaching program.

I. And now I'm living my dreams putting women one-on-one. And to me it all kind of ties together of the activism in this work. And I'm driven by the idea that women who free themselves from societal expectations will transform their families, their communities, and beyond. [00:02:00]

Tami: Absolutely. And so Sandy, if somebody is like, oh my goodness, that no more being good, I too, as a people pleaser, I too had these late epiphanies.

I too woke up one day and was like, the fuck did I get here? But more importantly, I love my people, but I wanna change how things are going around me to be more equitable and to model. For our queens who are on the, we're on the verge of becoming who we are. I always say, if you would not create your current life with your child.

You don't want your child to live your life. It's up to you to change your life so that they have a model. So tell us more. So you're Sandy Santa, right? You, you work with who, who is your favorite kind of client?

Sandi: Women [00:03:00] and women who resonate with the idea of done being good women who feel stuck.

Women who, like you said, are like, what? Look up and they're like, what the fuck happened? How did I end up here? Which was my me women who feel trapped in, people pleasing, weighed down by expectations and who ultimately feel super disconnected from who they are. And they know something is very wrong, but they don't know how to change it.

And also they might be like, is coming from inside

Tami: the house, outside the house? I'm not sure. So do you typically work with people one-on-one to really dive deep into their particular. Story of even how they got to where they are and, and it's like waking up and you're like, I did all the things. I did all I followed the script, but oh my God, I what I was sold at the end of this script that I was handed when I was a little girl.

Yeah. I didn't get the spoils. I am not in fact happy. No, not happy. It, it's that thing where you're [00:04:00] like, Hey, I held up my end of the bargain. Where is all of this stuff that I was sort of Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pill to swallow sometimes because it feels like a personal failing.

Sandi: Absolutely. I was kind of.

Is it a personal failing? No, it's not your fault. It's not my fault. Turns out it's not nobody's fault. And that is a big part of how I coach and a big part in the evolution of me and my partner's relationship was me coming to the realization that he too was performing his gender, doing everything he was taught from childhood.

We were perfectly performing our genders to

Tami: the detriment of both genders, totally to the detriment of all of us, because women are taught to overperform and be everything to everyone. And men are taught this very slim version of masculinity that also denies their humanity. It denies their their ability to get close to people, [00:05:00] to intimacy.

It's like it's men are not the enemy.

Sandi: It's crushing. It's crushing. Right. And I, I would argue they're taught to overperform in the workplace. You know, that's exactly

Tami: Underperform at home overperform in the workplace. Yeah. Where it's, it's also not appreciated. Like it's, it's a whole thing, but one of the, the fundamental parts that I feel like needs to be said out loud, probably every time our mouths are open is it's not a personal failing.

It is actually. Mm-hmm. It's a systemic cultural, it's cultural because we all swim in this ocean, but it's literally systemic in that there's a pay gap. There's no childcare. Like, all of these things fit together in a way that you're like, well, patriarchy,

Sandi: capitalism,

Tami: white

Sandi: [00:06:00] supremacy, capitalism.

Tami: Yeah. Yeah.

Sandi: Capitalism, all.

Tami: It's like, it's like they've all come together. And so recently, so you have come to this work in the last few years and you all your company done being good. Can you tell us more about that?

Sandi: Like, I was a stellar good girl. Like I mastered it. I knew how to weave in between my parents' like moods and desires and kept them happy, kept quiet, kept looking the way I was supposed to look.

And then I kept that right into adulthood as a mom. Or I tried, but then I was angry tired. I couldn't remember what I cared about, you know? It didn't, it stopped working.

Tami: That's a theme. Yeah. That's a, I was like, that's a theme. Yeah, that's a theme. The theme of what used to work. Isn't working [00:07:00] anymore.

No. Right. Capitalism and patriarchy and the American dream that used to work, it doesn't work anymore. And it like, and by work it means that we were, people were not talking about it. People were not organizing around it. People like it hadn't risen to the level yet. Right, because we absolutely, we were also being like, well, let's just put it this way.

I have seen many people on the internet say, I want, I want a wife like my grandmother. Why are, why are modern women not like my grandmother? And every single person who answers is like, because I have my own fucking money. I have a checking. Your grandma wasn't like, God, I wish I could do all these things in my unpaid labor.

And you literally cannot get a job or a paycheck. And [00:08:00] so there's a lot of intersections here. There's a lot of intersections of all the things, and also the intersection of people being like, this sucks. What can we do to change it?

Sandi: Well, I think there's a, like you said, the education is out there. There's people talking about it.

There's loads of books. But more than anything to me is listening to the signals your body is giving you, listening to that inner knowing that you have inside you that tells you, this is not right. I'm not meant to be doing all this. This is not what my life's supposed to look like. And questioning the thoughts that make you question your worth that.

That make you think this isn't perfect enough. I can't sleep yet. I have 40 more things to do. You know, I can't ask for help. I'm, I'm supposed to do this all by myself. That'll look weak if I ask for help. I you know, can't rest. I need to cook [00:09:00] a, like a dinner from scratch for my guests. I can't serve them frozen food.

Like, you know, listen very carefully to how your body reacts to these thoughts, what your instincts are saying and question them. Because you can look at a list of the, like, ideals in our society and they are inside our thoughts, perfectionism, individualism, toxic positivity, all the things. And until it's like, I guess for me, understanding what these cultural ideals were or are, I mean, I could.

Kick them out of my life. So to me it's a lot of, I call,

Tami: I call that I don't subscribe to that channel.

Sandi: No, I'm done with it. Yeah.

Tami: Or a simple No, thank you. You're done being good. Yeah. Like that, that, that particular channel hurts my feelings. So I will, I'll just keep going. Also, who benefits when I succumb to that messaging?

Yeah. It's not me. It's not you, you, I do not benefit. I do not benefit by [00:10:00] eating a shit sandwich, even if I bathe the sandwich myself.

Sandi: Yeah. And I think that's honestly such a hard journey to take because you do probably get validation from some people. I mean, I know for me it was right. And it's like realizing you've been eating that such shit Sandwich for like a decade is a hard pill to swallow.

And I personally had to go through a major mourning period after I realized I had been choosing to do that. I don't know if that resonates with you, but the other side, man, it's beautiful. Yeah, I will say that.

Tami: So I, I I got the life isn't fair and it's unequal for women. And I grew up in a, with an older brother in a pretty egalitarian household, which is bonkers. 'cause it's not like my pa my parents are super progressive, but they were [00:11:00] at least moderately progressive enough that there weren't boy jobs and girl jobs in my house.

My dad made fucking dinner every night. My dad's 83. He still makes fucking dinner every night. Like, no dad, right? Like, but also like he hunts and fishes. Like, he don't worry. He is still like, he, he witches. He could be more macho. But really I grew up in, in a time I. Where we grew up somewhere really expensive.

My mom had more education, so she made more money. He did more stuff around the house, they got divorced. Like it's all of the things. But also early on, because I too late diagnosed a DH adhd. Mm-hmm. One of the things about having a DH ADHD is that you have a justice button like it is installed and mine was hit really early.

And so my whole life I was like, that's fair. That's not [00:12:00] fair. That's not fair. And I wasn't afraid of authority in the way that other people are. Yeah. Because I was like, what the fuck are you gonna do? Ooh. Like we, one time in high school, our. The district came to all this, everyone, and said, every student has to sign this pledge to be drug and alcohol free.

Otherwise you can't participate in any school activities. When I was like, okay, A, you're asking a bunch of minors to sign a fucking piece of paper.

Sandi: Hmm.

Tami: Flawed logic. Yeah. B, you're asking us to pledge to not do something that is literally illegal for us. A drugs are illegal in general. Underage drinking ile.

I was like, no, like that. No, it's unnecessary. I found it to be offensive and I just [00:13:00] simply said to my friends and the people sitting next to me in math, what are they gonna fucking do if none of us sign it?

Are they gonna, like, I was a cheer. Are they gonna kick me off the cheerleading squad? Are they not gonna meet? I mean, I guess, and nobody signed it. And guess what? It just fucking disappeared. That's awesome. We all, and I was like, okay. I, I thought EE even then I was like,

your logic isn't loing. And so that's gonna be a passive. No, that's fantastic. That's so early. It's so early. But again I had a real roof upbringing where I learned really, really young. Like I was born in the seventies, so Yeah, me too. When I was born, my mother could not get a checking account,

Sandi: could not

Tami: get a credit card, could like.

I was the one when we're going to the grocery [00:14:00] store or going to buy towels at Mervin's and she's trying to buy towels and the credit card has my dad's name on it with a misses in front of it.

Sandi: Hmm.

Tami: But they're separated. Wow. So now we have to go to the credit, like it was like very early on, I was like, this is bullshit.

And my mom sent over and over to me, don't, don't make the same choices I've made over the course of my life. And I was like, no shit. Her name also Sandy. I was like, yeah, Sandy, you make looking like a grownup cat. No, none of this looks fun. None of this looks like I like, I wanna run into this. Also. Being a kid is not a picnic, but your version of this looks terrible.

Also confusing. 'cause I was like, but what are my other options? Mm-hmm.

And growing up with brothers also I feel like gives some women the. Fortitude of like, I don't have to be scared of these knit wits. I live [00:15:00] with these dummies. What? Like, what, what are they gonna do? Like also, I could take that guy down in a second 'cause I know all of his soft spots, you know what I mean?

And so I guess what I'm saying is I don't identify, I, I have gone through periods in my life where I have been like, well maybe I will be more likable and get along better with people if I present in this way. If I do this this way and I had a shitty boyfriend and there was no fucking amount of shape shifting that could please that guy.

And I was like, fuck

Sandi: this, fuck this. So you, you do not have to be done being good. Like you, you already mastered that it sounds like. Yeah, I mean, and I, it's funny 'cause

Tami: I, you guys and I just have my disgust face 'cause it's really comes down to, I'm like. Here's the thing. I had a boyfriend that I shapeshift for.

Mm-hmm. There was no pleasing, [00:16:00] that fucking guy. He didn't like me. And I was like, you know what, you don't like any version of me, so I'm gonna be over here liking myself because you know what? Fantastic. At least one of us likes me. You know who else likes me? All of my girlfriends. Yes. My mom loves it.

My dad is like, what the fuck? What are you, what, what? How do you even just move through the life? I'm like, well, not that palatable, but my, my friends like me. But you feel good inside? I do.

Sandi: Yeah. That's go, it hasn't been,

Tami: it hasn't been smooth sailing. However, I've spent less time trying to pretzel myself into that female super femme presenting, pleasing, yeah.

Thing because I'm like. It didn't work for me. Maybe that's why I gave up. Do you know what I mean? Where I was like, well, apparently I'm not even that good at this. Let me just be more of [00:17:00] myself. I had really strong girlfriends growing up too, who

Sandi: wonderful.

Tami: We were always we were always fre female friend forward.

Hmm. Like when I had went to college and I would hear about, well, I was at this bar and my friend left with this guy. I was like, you who does that? Yeah. What? Yeah. Six people. Those one of your friends who does that? Yeah. Who does that? Anyway, but I know I'm the weirdo in this situation because so many people are good at, they get people again, I am not without my people pleasing at times.

Sure, sure. Right. Yeah. However. Would we say that the pleasing is on a spectrum? Yes. And it's, it's situationally dependent. Yes. Right? Yes. [00:18:00] A lot of people might not even recognize it,

Sandi: right? No, it's like the water, your stomach. What was

Tami: your wake up call? I mean, other than you literally lost your voice.

Sandi: I mean, I think it was that in com combination with my brother or my husband's brother died and my mom almost died. And what was it

Tami: about the, those grief moments that you were like,

Sandi: and that threw me into the losing the voice and it was like all the same season. It really, we, we moved, we moved from Denver to Maine.

Like we just made loads of changes. I mean, I was at my edge health-wise. Like I was pushing myself in ways that were crazy. I was letting go of sleep to finish my work, my daytime work. I really just like reached my edge. I would say. Like something had to change or the marriage was gonna not work. I didn't feel good about who I was.

I, I don't know, I just,

Tami: but it's, but so you, it was like, I

Sandi: felt obsessed with [00:19:00] finding a solution

Tami: and Okay, but here's the thing. Why do people make change? Like so many people are like, but how did you start here and get here? I'm like, well, it's death. Yeah. Yours or someone else's. Yeah. It's diagnosis. Yeah.

Yours or someone else's. It is death, divorce, diagnosis, the three Ds. Right. Death, divorce, diagnosis. And they could be any version of that. Again, like one of my best friends died when I was 19. You get a lot of clarity when you're in super grief. Yeah. Right. And so sometimes when people aren't quite, they're like, everything's fine.

Everything's fine. I'm like, oh, not enough. Bad shit has happened to you personally yet, and I'm very glad for you. But also, hmm, it's coming. Everybody's wake up call is coming at some [00:20:00] point because the system doesn't work.

Sandi: Yeah. I'm just thinking my clients, it's like transitions, major transitions, often of sorts.

Not necessarily those three Ds, but Yeah.

Tami: What other major transitions are they? Retirement

Sandi: bankruptcy. Yeah. Oh, did

Tami: you say retirement? Yeah. Yes. Retirement is a good one. So many women are like. Fuck this. Let's start, if I'm creating the, the future for myself, I'm not bringing the shit that didn't work with me prior.

Yeah. Into my new life,

Sandi: or I was so busy in my career and as a mom that I don't even know what to do with my time now. Yeah.

Tami: Creating meaning for yourself at midlife.

Sandi: Yeah.

Tami: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Those big, big transitions. Yeah, because you're, you, you have an opportunity [00:21:00] to decide

what gets to stay and what has to go.

Sandi: Yeah.

Tami: And it is hard to do that when you're in the middle of the muck. Of, you know, midlife and motherhood and all that stuff.

Sandi: Oh, so hard. Yeah. I didn't even think about it. I think until my kids were like four.

Tami: Yeah. I mean, that makes sense, right? Yeah. Because you're too busy trying to like, keep people alive before they're four. You're like, don't accidentally drown on the toilet. Yeah. Don't stick your COIs in the electrical sockets. Don't walk in front of a car.

Sandi: Yeah, totally. And I feel like I was still very invested and rooted in the idea of being a martyr.

Like I didn't see, I didn't see outside of it.

Tami: Tell us more about the martyr. What do you mean by that? 'cause I know what you're talking about. I self-sacrificing.

Sandi: Yeah. 'cause I was getting loads of praise for it, you know, like, oh, you're so selfless. And then I also, no, wait, she

Tami: didn't, Hey everybody. She did not say selfish.

She said [00:22:00] selfless.

Sandi: Selfless.

Tami: Yes. Selfless. They sound very similar. They are very different.

Sandi: Yes.

Tami: And women get praised for like, oh, she gave everything to everyone. Yeah. And I,

Sandi: yeah. And my girlfriends and I would get together, we'd root, you know, talk about how we weren't sleeping enough and how our partners weren't doing enough.

And like, I don't know, it was just like fodder for trauma bonding, I guess, or I don't even know if it would be called that. But it was like very important to the relationship at the time. We were all complaining about her husband's my husband. This is another dynamic that I had to unlearn my husband makes more than I do.

And I stayed home. I was, I'm a social worker by trade. I've worked in nonprofits in public schools, and my whole identity was thrown in the air, so I felt like I had to. Be overproductive to like, to earn your feel worthy. Yeah. Yeah. And I wasn't valuing my time. I wasn't valuing my need to rest. I was [00:23:00] just going and I guess thinking I was filling my role at the time.

Tami: And you were the prescriptive role. Yeah, but the prescrip, but that's the thing. It's like, that's so many of my clients, especially my private clients, come to me midlife when they have followed every goddamn societal rule.

Sandi: Yeah.

Tami: And now they're standing at the end of the bridge and they have a, a book of matches in their hand.

And I'm like, Hey, six fur, six figure earner. Before you throw a match on your entire life, can we look at ways to make it where you don't want to say burn your whole life down because you worked really hard for that. You like some aspects of it. You might not see that right now. You also might not see the benefit of your six figure salary.

You will like that even more when you don't have that. So let's maybe preserve that. Let's figure out like, I know you feel a sense of urgency right now [00:24:00] 'cause you are like, and another thing, I'm sick of this shit. Yes. And perhaps we build some more pleasure into your life. Perhaps we address your need for sleep and your need for fun and your need for friendship and connection and being the most interesting version of yourself.

That's why I always start with unicorn space. Well actually I start with self-care with my clients. 'cause I'm like, girl, you can't do shit if you are hungry and fucking tired. Yeah. You might as well be drunk if you have that. And by the way, drinking is fucking with your sleep and your food too. Sorry, I'm almost 55.

I'm just gonna tell you all again one more time. Ready. I am the future. And the future says that shit is non-negotiable. You cannot be phoning in your fucking exercise in your fifties like you could in your twenties because it's like you're not a Toyota anymore, babe. You're a Ferrari and [00:25:00] you're vintage.

And on a good day, hopefully you'll be able to ride. But right now not if you don't actually put in the work, which is the question, at least this is. So you do this deep work and you started as a giver. Hello? Social worker. The giving professions. I was a teacher. Mm-hmm. How does self-care affect your work?

Sandi: If I don't show up for myself, I can't show up for anyone. And as a put it on a t-shirt, put it on a t-shirt, we'll

Tami: put in a million dollar idea. Yeah, that's true. T-shirt ideas.

Sandi: And, and that was true when I was just, when I was a martyr, I was not showing up for my kids. I was just concerned with my to-do list.

You know, like I'm sure I was showing up in ways, but now I'm much more present than I was when I was obsessed with my productivity. Shall I say?

Tami: Can I ask? Because I also have a neurodivergent child. My child was like, through her actions, [00:26:00] I don't give a shit about your todo loose Liddy. I'm gonna go hard to the mat and that'll be getting your attention.

I was like, hello? Forced to be reckoned with. No 6:00 AM Uno. I guess we're doing this. Do you know what I mean? It's like, like I can own in a lot of self-care before even I became a parent. But because I became a parent of a very, I'm gonna say demanding and seek the best way. She was like, sure, my needs, my needs will be being met by you or him, or both.

But let me tell you, somebody not going, they're not going unaddressed.

Sandi: Yes. Yeah.

Tami: At some point you're like, I'll do this. What do kids need?

Sandi: Yes. I, I have, I, my extra spicy kid, both of my kids were kind of sneaky compensated really well until they couldn't neuro divergent kids. So we had to go through a whole journey to figure out what's going on, which I'm [00:27:00] sure you've heard stories about.

But so when they were zero to three, they were pretty, I didn't know. Yeah.

Tami: Also zero to three, you're kind of like, I'm just keeping you all alive.

Sandi: But then I wouldn't let my house look crap, or crap is not the right word. Then I was really worried about appearances and all the things, and now I'll just sit on the couch in a messy house and hang out, that kind of thing.

Tami: Okay. What is so are you the next, are you millennial? I'm 48. What am my ex Okay. You're like, you're baby ex. You're, you're, you're right there. Wait, wait, year were you born? Because I, now I can't do math. 76. Oh yeah. You're Gen X. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so you're Gen X. I'm Gen X. So I'm gonna ask you a question that's gonna make you laugh.

Hey Sandy, what'd you learn about self-care? Growing up in the seventies and eighties, I, I wrote down, my mom went to Jazzercize,

which I dunno if any, okay. I'm gonna put a plug in for jazzercise. That shit is [00:28:00] hella fun. Just throwing that out there Also. I believe, interestingly enough, there's a book written by Danielle Friedman. I interviewed her for the podcast and it's called Let's Get Physical, and it's about the history of women's fitness.

Jazzercize helped create one of the first women billionaires. What? I know. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, because she franchised. Anyway, that was a long way of saying your mom went to jazz exercise. I saw that for fun to see her friends for exercise so she could fit into her pants.

Sandi: All of those, I think all of those, yeah, she was pretty fit.

She walked a lot. She also went to therapy, which I thought was pretty cool to model. Yeah, she did. Yeah. And my dad eventually became kind of obsessed with bike riding, so I think those were the things that I saw.

Tami: That's amazing. Now when your mom was going, because jazz size is like taking time out of the family.

Yeah. Time. Right. What did your, how did she address that with [00:29:00] you? And are you an only child or do you have siblings? No, I have

Sandi: a brother four years younger. I dunno, I just remember knowing it was happening. I knew it made her happy and like my dad would get pizza or something. Like, that's like my memory of it.

Like he knew to create that space. Like they had figured that out or she demanded it, you know, either way I'm like, she did

Tami: your, your mom unicorn spaced some shit in the seventies by She did. She's like, I didn't make dinner before I went. She's like, I'm gonna jazzercize. And your dad was like, we're having pizza.

AKA He took care of dinner. Yeah, he didn't call her on her hasn't been invented yet. Cell phone to ask her where, where the, where dinner was. She was just like, I don't know 'cause I'm not here. Amazing. Yeah.

Sandi: Yeah. That's kind of radical, huh? And con, especially considering the rest of the marriage was very, very stereotypically divided.

Tami: So super gendered except for in this way. And it's so interesting you did your grand, [00:30:00] did your grandmother have things that she did just for herself?

Sandi: I dunno.

Tami: Also wondering if your mom, if your mom's therapist was like, girl, you need to go to jazz or socks.

Sandi: Honestly, I doubt it. He was a pretty old school psychologist.

A dude. Yeah, dude.

Tami: Oh, that's amazing. Okay. Yeah. I, I am just having a moment. Your dad and my dad should get together and talk about the dinners that they provided for their families at, I think your dad might, might have some skills. Yeah. But, but at time where men were not feeding their families other than like the occasional barbecue moment.

Right? Yeah. And so it seems so simple and so like, almost like a throw throwaway thing, but. If you just, the next time you are in a public space and need a question to ask someone. I, [00:31:00] I'm gonna say this for everyone. Ask, Hey, growing up who made dinner? Hmm. 99% of people will say their mother and you'll say every night.

And they'll be like, they will look at you like, duh.

Sandi: Yeah. And you'll

Tami: be like, well, but yeah, but my dad made dinner. And they will look at you like you have a third eye because they're gonna be like, I'm sorry, your dad wait. And then they'll look at you like, how old are you? And like, how did your mom get your dad to make dinner?

Do you know what I mean? Because it's, it's actually not common. No. But it, but if you can see it. So I grew up with this knowledge that men. My dad did his own laundry. He ironed his own shirts. That fool paid me cash money if he wanted me to do an unpleasant task like ironing. Now, it was terrible. It was like a quarter shirt.

However, if that's [00:32:00] your only, it was like I was jail wages. Right? So if, but if that's your only way of making money, I mean, I'll stand, I'll watch American Bandstand and earn some cash while I Yeah. I remember making

Sandi: $4 an hour. I mean, that doesn't sound too bad.

Tami: Right. But this is the thing though. It's that because I saw that growing up.

Yeah. That was my baseline for what was possible. Absolutely. And it's so weird. I, and now I wanna go and interview all the facilitators and say, wait, did your dad make dinner growing up? Because we all, were all banking a bit of our. Careers on this notion of gender equity in the home. Yes. I wonder how many of us had tastes of that growing up.

So it's not that it's not a bigger leap, we don't like, we're not introducing like [00:33:00] cooking dinner is genderless. It's thinkless, but genderless. Right, right, right, right.

Sandi: No, that's interesting. I would say my story is more of rebelling against what I saw than like seeing taste of it, even though my mom did do this.

Jazzercize, Uhhuh. Yeah.

Tami: Are your parents still together?

Sandi: No.

Tami: Okay. And how old were you when they split up? Because that is also ps The rite of passage apparently in 1979 was like the absolute like pinnacle of divorce, like between 79 and 81. So I was in late elementary school then I. 70% of people's folks split up then in my, in my little area, like, you know, my sphere, my class, but I grew up in the Bay Area in the seventies, and so it was like very, very common at that time.

So

Sandi: yeah, I, [00:34:00] it was 90, it was 92 maybe.

Tami: Okay. So they waited till the kids were older?

Sandi: Yeah. Yeah. That's the other way. A little bit, yeah.

Tami: So interesting. Okay, so you watched some modeling, you talked about rebelling, about, you're like, this gender thing doesn't look that great.

Sandi: No.

Tami: So how is self care part of how you are changing the culture of.

Because by what we do in our homes, we change the future because our kids don't give a shit what we say. They actually just do what we do. Right? Sadly, we cannot talk people into doing things. We have to show them it's possible by actually doing it. So

Sandi: yeah. How,

Tami: how is it going as a grownup in your house, and how do you foster that?

That we have to do things to feel the way we wanna feel with your kids and your [00:35:00] spouse.

Sandi: I, I don't have a neat routine to share, but I would say that

Tami: for me, that's good because ADHDers struggle with that. So, yes,

I, we call 'em rituals. We call 'em menus. We call them things I could do to make myself feel better.

Let me choose one, but habits. Yeah.

Sandi: Yeah. I love that. I, I, time outside for me is critical. Spending time with friends and also spending time alone. And maybe more than anything is the idea of listening to my body. I don't wanna go to that social event. I'm not gonna go, I need time alone. I'm gonna ask for time away.

I might look like an awkward or. It might appear awkward if we're with my entire family and I need to leave the room or go outside. But I do so and that is something that I know I You get except

Tami: from the car. Yeah. I'm gonna go to the car. I'm gonna, anyone need anything from the store bathroom?

Sandi: Yeah. I go to the store lot Bath and I go to the,

Tami: I'm gonna [00:36:00] check the dog.

Dog.

Sandi: Yeah. Gotta get guy. Yeah. And my, one of my kids especially needs that, well both of them really. And I've been super proud to see them say no to invitations to do more things and, you know, stay home. Yeah. And just like, to me it's just like listening to my inner, knowing my inner voice more than anything and acting accordingly, which on which feels like a huge privilege some of the time.

But like, not giving into the idea that you know, I need to take on stress for others so that they can avoid it. Those kind of things.

Tami: So it's interesting though, because. I know that some of our people pleasing pals right now are like, I did you just ask me to disappoint people at every single aspect of my life?

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, totally. We have to get, we have to get comfortable with like, it's super uncomfortable to be like, I'm not gonna go to that thing. [00:37:00] Nope. But then you don't go, and then you don't know what's happening there.

Sandi: And you feel

Tami: great at

Sandi: home alone.

Tami: Right. You're not uncomfortable anymore. No. Right.

It's like, yeah. But being able to disappoint people Yeah. Is, is a skill. And that you gotta practice. It's like it gets way easier. It gets way easier. But how do you, but how did you also, so the other thing is some people really struggle with, they're like, listen to my body, listen to myself. What are you even talking about?

Sandi: What am I talking about? Like, one thing I really like the idea of and sort of informally do is cycle sinking. Like there I'm still getting my period. There are a couple months or a couple weeks each month where I'm more tired, like by far, and I do way less those weeks. I will cancel plans if I feel tired.

I will, if I feel excited about [00:38:00] something, I will go after it. I know that if I go for a brisk walk with my dog by the ocean, I'm gonna feel way better about everything. I might even come up with some good ideas. So I respect my body in those ways. But it's like letting myself be tired when I'm tired, letting myself feel, creates soft, quiet spaces for myself when I need them, instead of four social interactions. And like my, my body will tell me like, I know when I've hit my limit. I used to know that. It's interesting

Tami: too. Well, because it's like, it's, it's, you have to be quiet enough to hear.

Sandi: Hmm.

Tami: You have to be willing to disappoint others.

Yeah. You have. Which is hard to trust that this isn't the last PTA meeting you're gonna be invited to. This isn't the last. Right. You have to trust that what is meant for you will find you. Mm-hmm. When you have the capacity for it.

Sandi: Mm-hmm. [00:39:00] And boy is that kind of hard right now when it feels like you should be out there as an activist or someone who cares deeply about the world, like 24 hours a day doing something.

Tami: We talked about this on my coaching call last night about this idea of capacity, but also about how that sense of urgency is so embedded in white supremacy. Yep. In the, like, you are solely responsible. You are gonna go fix it, you have to do it, and it has to be done right this second and Yep. Right. So one of the things that I talked about last night was I used to be a teacher for Christ's sake.

I'm just letting you know I had some white savior shit going on real bad. Me too. My social worker. I see you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Like I will be doing this, all of that. One of the things that super helped me get out of that like sense of fucking urgency and feeling the weight of the world on my back was knowing it.[00:40:00]

I got there by reading history.

Sandi: Hmm.

Tami: Specifically reading history about. Social change movements, learning about people like John Lewis. By the way, I did not learn about John Lewis in high school or college. I was a political science major. I'm just letting you know I learned about John Lewis because I was reading for Pleasure, because I was curious about people who were in the Civil Rights Movement because for some reason history was in, I don't know if it's changed, but always ended at the Civil War.

And I was like, what? Come on. Or we would go as far as World War ii, and I was like World War Wari ended quite same time ago, but I, but looking at history, learning the names of the people who were able to sustain their activism throughout their life. Yeah, [00:41:00] the, the thread is I am heart of a bigger cycle.

It's like I'm part of a wave. I am during this part of history. I'm doing this amount with these people. Yes, the work happened before me. It will continue after me. Yes, I am not solely responsible for anything except the energy that I personally bring to the work. Don't show up as a crazy, urgent white savior.

Only I can do this has to be done right this second. 'cause you are just annoying the shit out of the people who have been in this work for fucking decades

Sandi: and perpetrating like continuing the system. Yeah.

Tami: Right. It's like you ain't it. You are a hog. And I was like, oh shit. I am exceptional. I am so smart.

I am all of these [00:42:00] things. What do you mean? I had to shut the fuck up and surrender. Oh yeah. I can really, I had to surrender. Yeah. And be like, okay, how can I show up the way that I need to show up so that I can be effective? I can help other people. I can be part of a team that moves these things forward while we have particular forces trying to move us back.

Comes down to I should probably eat a sandwich and take a nap, get a full night of sleep, lay off the booze, move my body, get into community, have fun, and also show up at the city council meeting. Hmm. Also make my phone calls. It's, it's a decision of, it's like this is not an either or, right?

Sandi: No, no.

Tami: It's a, it's a part, it's, it's how do you do [00:43:00] anything sustainably?

Sandi: Yeah.

Tami: It's the boring shit. It's maintenance.

Sandi: The boring, say more about the boring shit.

Tami: Drinking fucking water.

Sandi: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Take care of yourself. Routine.

Tami: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the boring shit. When, when does it stop? Never.

Sandi: No.

Tami: Right. But if you neglect yourself, if you are a martyr. Yeah. If you totally, if you light yourself on fire to warm other people, not really warming them, you're just getting your yuck on them.

Sandi: Absolutely. And for me, I know, like if activism isn't part of my life, even if it's just a little. Part, like if it's not there at all, like I'm not me. So for me it is almost part of like the boring stuff, you know what I mean?

Tami: Tell me, tell us, tell us more about your activism, because we know you don't have morning routine, whatever.

No. So before, [00:44:00] before we act, let me talk to you. Before we get to the activism part, let's celebrate you a little bit, right? What part of your self-care is going well? What could use a little bit more of attention?

Sandi: I've been reading a ton this year, which feels really, really good because that was something I did as a child and I feel like I'm honoring her and I'm sitting on the couch and I'm not feeling guilty, and that's fucking fantastic.

Damn Revolution. Reading revolution. Yes. And I'm resting when I need to. I'd say yeah. What's going well is I do pay attention to my cycles, what we talked about. And the other day, I, I put this somewhere in the social media somewhere, but, the other day, my daughter called me boring, and I was like, fuck yes man.

I've arrived. Yes. I used to be like, you know, nonstop busy. I never would sit down, you know? And now I am sitting and I'm boring and

Tami: I'm like, Hey, that's a success. And I am, and I'm taking that as like, you're like, well you mean I'm not raging at everyone? Oh, you mean I'm not up in your business? Oh, you mean like [00:45:00] I know you're like, oh no, I want it to be boring.

I had a student call me lazy one time and I was like, let me pull up a chair so you can tell me all about that. He's like, you don't do anything around here. And I was like, is it a good time to tell you my teaching philosophy? And he is like, I don't even know what that is. I was like, okay. But philosophy is the things I believe.

He's like, I go, I believe if a kid can do it, I should get outta their way and let them do it. Yeah. And he was like. But I'm like, also I would just like to note you feel really good about yourself 'cause you just called an authority figure lazy. So, and I didn't overreact. I sat down and was like, tell me more about that.

And I was like, also when you go to your next grade, come back and let me know the difference. First week of school, he came back and he was like, oh my God, they don't let us do anything there. Oh. I said, that's right. You're back to being a child. I was trying to help you practice being some grownups. So, oh

Sandi: man,

Tami: that's a powerful story, right?

It's just like, dude, I don't need to get better [00:46:00] at the shit I'm already good at. Hmm. You need to get better at the shit you are terrible at. Anyway, the long story short is being called boring by a child. Ow. Yes. 'cause you're not making it about you. Ow. You're like, there's no drama here, ma'am. I'm just sitting on the couch reading a book.

Feeling great. Feeling great. Yeah. Sandy, if people are like, I'm feeling the good girl shit and I don't wanna be so good anymore, how can they find you to learn more about how to work with you? Done

Sandi: being good. Dot com.

Tami: Done being good.

Sandi: Dot

Tami: com. I love it. Or

Sandi: done being good on Instagram.

Tami: Okay.

Sandi: I

Tami: love that. Now, just because I'm curious, tell me a little bit about your activism, because a lot of people are like, how do you marry self-care and activism?

I'm like, well, using my voice [00:47:00] and trying to make everybody's life easier through policy is self-care for me. Yeah. He'd like, I'm a natural problem solver and I would like the world to be better, not just for me, but for you too. Because when the world is better for all of us. We're all in a better mood.

We're all like, who wouldn't want the shit I'm advocating for? Who doesn't want bodily autonomy? Who doesn't want free quality education? Who doesn't want childcare? High quality, readily available childcare. You know how much everybody's life would change if parents had somewhere, if they had a team to help raise these children's.

Do you know how much better everyone's life would be? So activism for me, again, it sounds like for you is like a natural part of life. Also, when you have neurodivergent kids, all you do is say things like, this is [00:48:00] established law. You have to do this. Let's have another meeting so we can talk about how these things need to be done.

Yeah.

Sandi: So tell

Tami: us more about your activism.

Sandi: So I totally relate to your journey of white saviorhood and just kind of wanting to feel more validation for going into sa, you know, help people on my own terms. Let me think. Where do I wanna start? I,

as it ties to my work, I learned and am learning a lot, mostly from women of color. Probably, maybe I'll, well I'll just say mostly about white supremacy, about the cool, you know, the characteristics of white supremacy, about capitalism, about patriarchy, and you can look and how it hurts all of us, all of us.

And as much as I carry, I carry so much privilege. I'm walking around and I am able-bodied, I'm cisgender. We have financial privilege, like I am privileged and. Those things hurt our partnership. It hurt me. [00:49:00] It was a hindrance. It took us away from our humanity. It disconnected us from each other. And I can see how this prayer, how our culture prioritizes power and profit over people in my home.

And I can see it in Gaza. I can see it in everything Trump says, and I can see it in how everyone in the whole like world is treated. That's not a billionaire white boy. And to me, I'm not free until you're free. And you know, we're all related. My liberation's tied to your liberation. Tied to everybody's liberation.

And yeah, I have that gene probably because of a adhd. I don't know, but it's been there forever. It's been there forever. And maybe they,

Tami: I it's not fair

Sandi: Gene. Yeah. And like just, it's really like a. A drive to be involved in not feeling myself when I'm not. Yeah. But we have a very strong parents' rights [00:50:00] group in town.

You know, which are the people who believe human sexuality. Any sort of anti-racism training any sort of books that talk about any gender other than boy and girl. You know that there only are boy and girl genders. They are in our school board meetings and I have listened to sitting in the room with them.

We passed a policy that protected gender expansive youth a couple years ago. Change Me. I was like, these are our neighbors. And long story short, I had to go through. Sort of a journey of where do I belong. I had all the urgency, I had all the, I'm not doing enough. And now have just focused my efforts locally.

So I do a lot of work around within two other women supporting marginalized communities in our tiny little town. And right now that's trans youth and for me personally, neurodivergent kids with learning disabilities in our school district. But so that is where my [00:51:00] little tiny corner that I'm embracing because that's what I can do right now.

Well, but

Tami: also all

politics is local.

Sandi: Hmm. Yeah.

Tami: When it, when it comes down to it, the federal wouldn't be such a shit show. If these people hadn't first been city council, wouldn't first have been on the school board. People do not come out of nowhere and end up at the highest echelon of government. Oh my gosh. It's, they're the asshole who is coaching your kids' soccer team and being mean to kids.

Yeah. Right. It's like we need to be in our communities and go to these boring ass meetings. Yeah. And make sure they don't get

Sandi: elected.

Tami: Make sure they don't get elected. Yeah. Make sure when they are elected that they are challenged on their policy. Mm-hmm. And it's funny because one of the, so I have a, a member, a monthly [00:52:00] membership that I call civ, I call it civics and self-care.

And it is truly about, it's about what is important to you and you only get to pick one or two things. Why that's great? Because that is all that you have capacity for. Yeah. One of our assignments is who represents you? And I wanna know. From your city council to your county commissioner. I wanna know the names and phone numbers of all of those people because when you finally look at the county commissioner and you go it, I think I went to high school with that guy's cousin.

Suddenly governmental officials don't seem like some overpowering person. They seem like that jerk that you met at the high school dance at one time. Or the person who is on the soccer team, or who's coaching the soccer team. Right. One of the, one of the, my goals for 2025 is for everyone to go to [00:53:00] some sort of civic

Sandi: meeting,

Tami: whether it be going to the city council.

Ours is on Tuesday at two o'clock. I'm like, who can do that? Oh wait, I can. But they also do 'em at five o'clock on Tuesdays. They, they go back and forth so. I'm this with somebody who does like a lot of embroidery. I'm like, Hey, do you wanna get lunch and do you wanna get lunch? And then pop over to the city council meeting and you can do your embroidery while we're there.

Yes. I can play words with friends. If you wanna be like, we should call it margaritas in meetings. Like maybe you're not supposed to be drinking in public. Okay. I don't drink alcohol, but I'm just saying that could you not have a margarita before you go? Could you not have a margarita after you go? Yeah.

Like if instead of staying home and scrolling on your phone and watching Netflix go to a boring fucking meeting with your friend. Yeah. When they say dumb shit up there, text your friend who is sitting next to [00:54:00] you, and I'm telling you, if you are under the age of 70, everyone in that meeting will be like, who the fuck are they?

And why are they here? And you're like, hi, I just learned this was a thing I'm watching. Just learned this was a thing that I should be paying attention to. And so now I'm here and I brought my friend because we're both. Our families are having pizza, our spouses are taking care of it. We're gonna have a margarita later and talk shit about all the dumb stuff that you did.

Yeah. Because when you watch what's happening in your community, suddenly everybody's like, oh shit, people are watching.

Sandi: Mm-hmm. Ooh,

Tami: what did I see? What?

Sandi: Right. And I don't know if it's like where in our town the people who believe not what I believe historically have shown up more than the people who have values more like me.

So like we're making average show, I'm gonna say the nut butters more.

Tami: The nutter butters, they're always at the fucking meetings. That's why they get their shit, you guys, [00:55:00] because we're off having margaritas at a bar, I think it's all gonna be okay. Or we're at home. Yeah, we're at home doing homework. Also, do you know what I think would be hilarious?

Is if we actually brought our children those annoying fucking people. Why don't you come to the city council meeting and do your homework here? Why not? Yeah. It's like you can see how this works. They can see who they're supposed to be representing.

Sandi: Yeah.

Tami: It's like, oh, do you wanna cut tutoring services for these folks?

'cause I can drop 'em at your office. Right. It's like bringing it, but, but bringing it back to there's humanity in civics. Yes. The people who are in power are literally people closer. You are. Yes. You know these people. Yeah. We know, maybe we don't know our congressional member, but we can know who is [00:56:00] closest to us.

We can. Absolutely. And we should. Right? Because again, the people who don't share our values miraculously always show up. I'm like, who is taking care of your kids?

Sandi: Sometimes they're there.

Tami: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So let's show up. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. I know that was an unexpected question, but have that question for this year because everybody that I interview for my show are people that I find interesting that I think are doing great work.

That I'm like, I know I, because I'm cataloging everyone I've ever interviewed for this show, and it's people who are doing things beyond just like clocking in. Right? There are people who are making changes where they live, and it could be that they are teaching preschool. Yeah. That, but you know what I mean, [00:57:00] community garden.

Yeah, exactly. It's all of the things. What is activism? How is that showing up? Because we're all doing it, and again, it doesn't, activism doesn't have to always be showing up at a meeting or testifying or even knowing those issues. It could be throwing money at the problem, AKA donating money to feed the people who are showing up at the meeting.

Mm-hmm. It's doing childcare for the people who are going to the meeting. It is, right. It's like whatever your flavor of that is, it's making political art. It's figuring out, one of my client's husbands is like the sleeper artist of this era. Every, like, every time he makes a piece, I'm like, who can we get his art into?

Like the public sphere? It's gorgeous. Wow. So political, so topical and you would actually wanna hang it in your [00:58:00] house. I. It's like this magical thing. So anyway, maybe that could be on my list of things to do this year is like, get Rachel's husband a, an art show. The point of all of this is we don't have to do everything right.

'cause we're not saviors. No, we can't, we don't have to do everything, but everybody has to do something. That

Sandi: would

Tami: be great. Right? It would make the work easier for all of us if everybody did something.

Sandi: And I love how you framed it or you know, with art and, you know, obvi, we were talking about gardening.

Like, it, it could just, it can be an extension of your gifts and your passions. It doesn't have to be I would, I would hope it would be It doesn't have to, it makes it easier, right? Yeah, it makes it easier. It makes it more obvious and makes it fun. It makes, makes, oh

Tami: my God, it makes it fun. Yeah. It's funny because my sweet spot is I talk about politics on the internet and how it affects regular people.[00:59:00]

The reason I do that is because I am a fucking teacher. I take complex topics and break them down so it makes sense. And I worked in politics, so I'm the weirdo that has both worlds and I can say with my whole chest, if you tell a compelling story, compell to a lawmaker, they can turn on a dime. They can be a hundred percent for something they hear from a constituent and they find out they're fucking wrong.

They can be like, I was wrong. And change. Yeah. Yeah. Your 'cause they are human. Absolutely. Most of them have an inflated sense of their importance. I will say that. Very tough running for office. However, very tough they're humans. Right? Treat them as such. We're we can talk to humans space.

Sandi: Right to [01:00:00] influence like what you're talking about.

I would think like that's part of the reason I focused myself on the local because I really think those stories make a huge, huge difference.

Tami: 100%

Sandi: make huge. Whereas writing your senator maybe less of a difference sadly.

Tami: It's funny that you say that. I actually worked for a US senator. Prove me wrong. I'd love to hear it.

It works. That dude used to hold fucking sidewalk office hours. So I was, I worked on the campaign, which meant I was like, come into the office and make donor phone calls and ask people for money. And he was like, no thanks. I would rather talk to constituents. And I was like, but you're never gonna ask any of them for money.

And I'm on the fundraising team. Can we go to the office? And he is like, grab a clipboard, pull over. He would stand and he's very tall. Senator Ron Wyden from Portland, from Oregon, very tall. He would stand outside a bookstore. People would walk by, Hey Ron, hey, [01:01:00] Senator Widen. And, and then he would say, let's chat.

And people would come over and he'd say like, what's on your mind? What's, what's, what's good, what's not great? And if people came to him and presented a problem, he expected the STA to write down their name and their phone number and their problem. And then we would try to put that person who's having a problem together with somebody who get, could get them on the road to getting their problem solved.

So if it was the federal problem, we could handle it internally, right? But they were having a VA issue or a student loan issue, or a this or that, right? So if it was a federal thing, we could do, but he's like, oh, that's not, that's not in our purview. However, we know people at the state level, you should talk to these people.

Because a lot of the reason why people get stuck is they're like. Who, who's in charge of this thing? Yeah, like say [01:02:00] you're on unemployment. You're like, well, when it works, it works, but when it doesn't work, what the fuck do I do? The answer is you call your congressional office and you ask them, don't call in Washington dc You call their district office.

You ask them, and if they can't help you, they will say, that's not an US issue, that's a this other agency and this is the phone number and the person you should talk to.

I have seen this with my own eyes, people, Democrats, let's be real. I've never worked for a Republican and I would never be welcome in an office, but Democrats by and large get into public service to help people. I do agree with that,

Sandi: so

Tami: ask them. For help. Tell them [01:03:00] what your problem is and they'll go, I had no fucking idea because that's not my own personal experience.

That's not what I'm hearing from the Nutter butters who always show up. They're telling this story. They're always here, and people are like, oh, lobbyists. Okay, well you know what a lobbyist's job is to tell stories, who compel people. We are all lobbyists. We're just not paid to be. You have to talk to the people who are, who have the power to make things happen.

That's what I wanna talk to your uncle fucking Rob. I don't give a shit about your Uncle Rob, unless Uncle Rob holds public office. I'm like, fuck yourself. I don't need to talk to you. However, if Rob and I share an issue, we're having the same thing. I'm like, Rob, stop yelling at people on the internet and come over here.

And tell the person who has power to change the thing, how this thing could help you. [01:04:00] That's a good use of your time.

Sandi: It is. It can be. I think, and I have Susan Collins and Oh, well, she's not a Democrat. I'll say that. I know. And Angus King is okay, but well, Susan calls times as Mainers yeah.

That we're not being hurt. But your guys great and I'm sure they are helping people with individual problems, but, and I also think they have a difficult job in Washington getting things passed. Democrats. Let's see. Yes, but exactly. Especially now. That's

Tami: funny. But you know what's also interesting is Maine has a Susan Collins problem.

We do. But the biggest problem that Mainers have is they keep Reelecting Susan Collins.

Sandi: Yeah. And I, there's a lot of chatter that Janet Mills is running. I hope she's gonna, I just found

Tami: out,

Sandi: so

Tami: I just found out we're [01:05:00] recording this on March 11th. Katie Porter just said, I'm running for governor. And I literally all caps texted, holy shit, Katie Porter's running for governor.

Oh wow. To like five people and everyone went, shut the fuck up. And I was like, I know. Here's the thing. The governor's election, not this year, it's not, and next week it's, but I'm excited. And so now that's exciting, right? And so my, my challenge is Susan David, I don't live on your coast and I know Susan Collins is a problem.

If you guys dunno who? Susan Collins, I'm sure she's a Republican senator from Maine, who is the Mest mouth person. You've, she's like a bad third grade teacher that talks out both sides of her ask and is always like giving the benefit of the doubt to the wrong fucking person. And then she's like, I'm thinking about voting against this thing.

And then she totally falls in line with the Republicans and is like, oh, what you gonna [01:06:00] do? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Susan, she was the, she put Kavanaugh. I'm for your bullshit. Yeah. I mean, I, right. So I don't care who runs. We're ready to vote her out. Yeah. I don't care who runs against Susan Collins. I'd like to give them some money.

Thank you. Because Susan Collins fucks with my life in California with her terrible votes. Right. She really does. Yeah. The point of all of this guys is, you know, people, if you're listening to this show, you know me, you now know Sandy, and we are bringing our humanity into changing the world. I. For all of us, and we can help you do the same.

And again, we're not doing it perfectly. No. We're not waiting for people to be like, Hey, would you like to do this? No, we're not going back and becoming lawyers. We, I mean, I already have, I have a [01:07:00] 30-year-old political science degree. Would you guys all like to borrow it?

Sandi: Because I can

Tami: share it, right? You don't have to go back to college.

No, just ask me. Yeah. I'll tell you. I will share my political science knowledge because I have it. And we're doing a group project together. Let me tell you, if I could do a group project by myself, things would be so much better if it turns out I have to cooperate with my peers. Right. And I have to persuade my peers that this is a thing that we can do.

We don't have to burn ourselves out. We don't have to save the whole planet, but we do have to show up a little bit.

Sandi: Just show up and share what you believe in. That's it. Exactly. Yeah.

Tami: Show up and share what you believe in. And if you're not sure because you've been doing good, try to be a good girl. Talk to Sandy, right.[01:08:00]

She found her voice because she stopped trying to be everything to everyone. I love that girl. I'm so glad we got to connect. Let's do a quickie here and as the studio style questions, we always edit and I always try to make these fast, so, okay, I'm ready. Do it in five minutes. Are you ready? We have 10 questions.

Five minutes. Sandy, what is your Enneagram? Four?

They're so fucking emo. I love them. Are you an introvert? Extrovert? I'm gonna go with, let me guess. Introvert. Bingo. Yeah. You're like girl. Same. On question. Ruben. Four tendencies. Are you an upholder, questioner? Obliger or rebel

Sandi: questioner.

Tami: Me too. Me too. Okay. If you're gonna automate, eliminate, delegate something from your household, what are you gonna do?

Sandi: I've chose eliminate. I don't know if [01:09:00] that's like a choice that you were looking for, but I am all about doing less and dropping things. I think very few things matter.

Tami: Give us, give us an example of something you're like, yeah, I'm not fucking doing that anymore.

Oh, washing the dishes every day. Yeah. Perfect. Perfect example. The other day, my husband. We were doing this swap, this swap meaning that he's in charge of, for one week, he's in charge of meal planning, grocery shopping, and cooking. And on that week, my daughter and I are in charge of keeping the kitchen clean.

Sandi: Hmm.

Tami: It's beautiful. God. It's like we're fed. We're, it's, it's so glorious. And we just started this like really like hard line a couple weeks ago. And the other day I said, oh honey, how are you feeling now that you're not having to do dishes anymore? And he was like, well, the other day, and I, he started to get pissy and I was like, wait a second.

Are you gonna say something about how I waited till morning to do the dishes? And he goes, yeah. And I'm like, [01:10:00] you could put that in the minimum standard of care, but I'm not gonna agree to that. I was like, you didn't have to wash them, you just didn't get to decide when they were done. But it was, that idea was like, I don't, I hate.

A lot of times they will do dishes in the evening. Yeah. But sometimes they won't. But when I do them in the morning, it's like, I've thrown caffeine on this. Let's be real. That shit gets done way better in the morning. Yeah. 'cause it's also, I have to deal with it and I'm the one that works at home. I want it to be clean here.

I'm going to bed. You got

Sandi: to like read your book instead of doing the dishes or watch Netflix or whatever you do.

Tami: Yeah, exactly. Okay. Speaking of books, what is the last book that you read that you thought, oh cute. Everyone needs to read this. Most recent

Sandi: all what? All fours. Have you read that? No. What is it?

Oh my God. It's a fiction book and it's about a woman in perimenopause and sold. It's fucking amazing. She says all the things that we all think [01:11:00] she has like, fuck

Tami: the shit.

Sandi: Yeah. Is it fair? Yeah. Why don't we know

Tami: about this? It's half the population.

Sandi: It brings it raw. She has like. Escapades that make it spicy.

You know, it's, it's a good book. All fours super recommend.

Tami: Okay. Well we're all like all fours. Okay. Favorite book of all time that you're like, this was

Sandi: really hard for me to think about Of course of all time, but the one that came up that I think that I would recommend to maybe first is Do Less by Kate Northup.

Have you read that one? Okay. Yeah. And it introduced me to Cycle sinking. It introduced me to the idea that your body has wisdom. It introduced me to the idea that some parts of the month are slower than others and that is the way it's supposed to be. That we're not supposed to have 20 days of like equal energy.

Yeah,

Tami: I wish somebody would've said those words out loud to me at some time before I was about 40. Hmm. Because it never occurred to me that I wasn't supposed to [01:12:00] constantly there that. Even though I had this cyclical thing happening, I, in my mind held myself to the standard and it was way too high to begin with, but that every moment of every day, I should be at this level.

Yeah, totally. Same. How much failure can you fit into one fucking day? Like, like on the best day? I can't reach that. Why do you think on a day where I am like, like entire, an entire cycle is happening inside my body? Why did, and because you know what? I don't see patterns that other people easily see. I see patterns that very rarely other people see.

So something that is completely obvious to some people, I'm like, well, you're gonna have to say that shit out loud because I was never gonna pick that up. 'cause I, my eyeballs do not see that. So when people say stuff about having different energy levels during different times of their cycle, [01:13:00] I'm like.

Louder for the people who don't and will never figure that out on their own. Right. Like I make the invisible visible please. Because some of us are like, what? That's a thing. I thought that was just me. I thought I was just feeling a lot. Yeah.

Sandi: And

Tami: having

Sandi: anxiety nonstop.

Tami: Right. And why can't I do more? I mean, ev, I will say some of our do-gooders here, when you said do less, their armpits started sweating.

Oh yeah. Like they're on a bad job overview. Just on the idea of doing less.

Sandi: Yeah. Your nervous system's. Like what? How will everyone survive?

Tami: How will I survive with all these people being disappointed in me all the time?

Sandi: Yeah. And not knowing how to do this stuff. I always do. You know, I find my value in doing those things, like these changes are hard.

But it gets easier and easier. Exactly. Start smalls, turns

Tami: out we [01:14:00] had to practice doing less too.

Sandi: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, start small.

Tami: What about your favorite personal development book?

Sandi: Also hard, but I chose 4,000 Weeks by Oliver Berkman. Have you read that one?

Tami: Tell me more. Is that how long, that's how long that it's like,

Sandi: yes.

A life

Tami: is only 4,000 weeks.

Sandi: Yep. Average. I forgot how many years that is. I can't do the math fast. What is it? 80 a, a little less than 78 maybe. But it that's some,

Tami: that's some shit in perspective right there.

Sandi: It puts some shit in perspective. It does. And that's his whole, I'd say premise. But what I got out of it more than anything was that you will never, ever conquer your to-do list.

Like ever, ever, ever. And it's, I think this, the second half of the title is time management for mortals, but, like he really zeros in on how you focus in on a really, really, really, really matters to you. And then do three out of those and you'll have a [01:15:00] great life. So I just feel like it's a book that gives you permission to also do less, but for your own benefit to focus in on what's gonna make your life sing.

Tami: Okay. I'm noticing a theme and I haven't read any of these. Yes. And I'm going to get them all. But I wanna offer you one that maybe you haven't heard too. Actually. One is I didn't do the thing today by Madeline dor. I don't know that one. Yeah. I didn't do the thing today. I was like, I read it and I'm like, intellectually I know all of these things, but boy, is there a big difference between the front of my very mature prefrontal cortex intellectually understanding this and actually putting into practice.

And the other one is, well, there's two more. Why not to hate your ki hate your husband after kids? Hmm. That's just a funny take on domestic, you know, labor and it's got a catchy title. And then the other one I really like is called Drop the [01:16:00] Ball by Tiffany. I, I haven't read, I love that. Sitting on my book

Sandi: or on my shelf.

Oh,

Tami: I love that book. So outside that one, yeah, so much because part of this whole like having our family, like creating more, an more of an equitable di distribution of labor, meaning a PA, you're not fucking doing everything is that you also don't get to micromanage the shit out of the people in your life who are doing things.

Yep. And you don't get to be mad at the people who have never made dinner before that their dinner sucks. Right. Well, you should have known this thing that you were never taught how to do and you've never practiced. It's like. That's like being mad at the dog that they can't drive the car. It's like that fucking dog has never been tasked with driving the car.

That's so good. Of course they dunno how to do it. Yeah, absolutely. Much like your 7-year-old can't make dinner much like your husband can't make [01:17:00] dinner because no one has ever let him. Yep. Do it imperfectly. Like stop. Absolutely micromanaging. And also neither

Sandi: could we. Right? Like I couldn't make dinner.

I didn't know how to do stuff.

Tami: Yeah. It was funny. But one thing it was funny is when my husband and I didn't become parents until we were in our forties. Mm-hmm. See earlier comment about how a fourth grader called Unequivocally lazy. When my kid was little, I was like, I told my husband, I'm like, I do not know how to do this any better than you do.

Yeah. And so what we're gonna do is we're gonna start this baseline of. You are just as incompetent or competent as I am. Vos. Right. And, but in order to not micromanage him when I thought he was doing it poorly, I would just go do something else. AKA, yes, work on my business or go out with my friends, whatever.

And, but we've grown as parents [01:18:00] over time. Do I occasionally micromanage? Of course I do. I'm an asshole. However, he's like, yes, you are an asshole. And yes you do micromanage. But I also let him be successful in his own way. We're different people. That's why we do it differently. Yeah. They have a different relationship.

I also had a therapist one time say, your kids are gonna go to therapy for their parents. You just have to be less annoying than your spouse. And I was like, you know what? Whatever it takes, the point is, is drop the ball is like stop grasping the expertise. Every single thing. One time a friend on Facebook, she's got four kids and a husband, and she came on and jokingly said, is there a right way to load a dishwasher?

And of course, you know, that's a, everyone's like, yes, you. And I said, only if you wanna keep that job forever. [01:19:00]

Sandi: Oh, that's a good one.

Tami: Right? It's like, Nope, that is so good. I'm a, you say a 4-year-old wants to do the dishwasher. Cool. Let's put it, let have them do it and then open the dishwasher. Is anything in here clean?

No. 'cause you put them all in wrong. What did we learn from this? All right. Little one. What do we gotta do differently? Right? Yeah. Yeah. But if you, if you, it has to be done your way, that's where we run into trouble. Yep. 'cause nobody wants to be micromanaged.

Sandi: And it takes practice. Practice stepping back.

Like that's another thing that's gonna feel so uncomfortable. But it gets easier.

Tami: But it gets easier, especially if you're exercise. You know, like did you have pizza? I don't know. I wasn't here. I hope you guys ate dinner before you went to bed because I was exercising, or I went to therapy or Oh my God. I went to the city council meeting and I had a margarie with my friend.

Sandi: Why? Why not? [01:20:00] Yeah. Yeah. If it gets done when, if it's not part of your mental load, when like who cares how it's done? I agree. Exactly. And I had to learn it.

Tami: Well, me too. We all did because has

disappointing people. The judgment of people. Somebody recently asked me, well, it was a man, well, where does the judgment come from? I'm like, your mother. Your best friend, your aunt, like woman with a, and he's like, well what does it sound like? I'm like, it sounds a lot like, well it must be nice if I had a fucking nickel or every time somebody said, it must be nice to me.

Actually be rich. Also, people do not makes when you answer, it must be nice with it. Fucking is. I love it. And you could do it too, but it's true. It's nice that my husband takes care of from start to finish childcare in the summer. I, that's because [01:21:00] I said I'm not doing it. You hang out with her, you're a teacher so you guys could be together all summer and he's like, summer camp.

It is. I didn't do anything 'cause it wasn't my problem. You empowered him to do it and the way he wanted do empowered him to do it. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. And you set a boundary. Yeah. Awesome. Where do you like to hang out on social media?

Sandi: I wrote threads because I'm really enjoying over there right now and I just talk about things like gardening and white supremacy and A DHD and don't think too hard about it and it's just fun.

But I really like, I've made some really cool relationships on Instagram and I appreciate that.

Tami: Yeah. I like both of those too. Yeah. Favorite TV show? Past or present or both?

Sandi: I put The Hulk because that was one I really liked when I was a kid. In terms of past and then White Lotus, I'm obsessed.

Both are amazing.

Tami: It's funny, the Hulk, I [01:22:00] was both terrified of The Hulk when I was a kid and also Hulk Deeply, like, I think part of the reason why I was terrified of The Hulk, 'cause I was like, me too, Bruce. Me too. Ah, I also am full of fucking rage. Oh, that's, that's interesting. And rage scares me. And yet, yeah.

And yeah. Yes, me too, sir. All right. And this is everybody's favorite, and by everybody, I mean mine and is, I stole this from James Lipton. Sandy, what is your favorite swear word? Fuck. Definitely most people are in the fuck club. And yes, we should make a shirt that says I'm in the fuck club. Because Oh, it just, it, it works.

It works. I love it. It works in all contexts. I appreciate you tell everybody again, thank you, where they can find you if they are wanting to be less good,

Sandi: less good. Done [01:23:00] being good.com. I have a. Upcoming workshop in on May 8th, around inviting your partner to step up. I said inviting partnership without Blaine.

So inviting your partner to be by your side in the house more. Love that. And yes, I am focusing on one-to-one coaching and you can book a free alignment call and on my site.

Tami: Perfect. Thank you for being here. Everybody go connect with Sandy online. You can find her on Threads Instagram website. If you are also done being good, come and tell us about it.

You can find us both on Instagram.

Sandi: I would

Tami: love that. And, and tell next week. Remember that you matter too.